GPS World: USNO's Fountain: Time at 100 Trillionths of a Second

Quotes from http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf
that use the GENERIC term " "relativistic".

1. The nominal frequency of this source -- as it appears to an observer on the ground -- is 10.23 MHz.
The SV carrier frequency and clock rates -- as they would appear to an observer located in the SV -- are offset to
compensate for relativistic effects. The clock rates are offset by ? f/f = -4.4647E-10, equivalent to a change in the
P-code chipping rate of 10.23 MHz offset by a ? f = -4.5674E-3 Hz. This is equal to 10.22999999543 MHz.

================

2, The algorithms defined below (a) allow all users to correct the
code phase time received from the SV with respect to both SV code phase offset and relativistic effects, (b) permit
the "single frequency" (L1 or L2) user to compensate for the effects of SV group delay differential (the user who
utilizes both frequencies does not require this correction, since the clock parameters account for the induced
effects),

for the SV implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential group delay. Since these
coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite
relativistic correction. Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.

===============

3. for the SV implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential group delay. Since these
coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite
relativistic correction. Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.

The user shall correct the time received from the SV with the equation (in seconds)
GPS system time = message transmission time - phase time offset

=============

4. the relativistic correction term (seconds) which is given by
relativistic correction term = F e orbital parameter(A) sin orbital parameter(Ek.
while F is a constant whose value is
F = 2*µ^.5 / c^2 = - 4.442807633x10^-10

===============

5. The control segment will utilize the following alternative but equivalent expression for the relativistic effect when
estimating the NAV parameters:
equivalent expression for the relativistic effect = 2 * (instantaneous position vector of the SV) * (instantaneous velocity vector of the SV) / C^2

===========

1. Why call the affect of acceleration on the frequency of an oscillator
a "relativistic effect" when this was discovered over 300 years ago
by Galileo, and England sent ships all over the Earth with
standard pendulum "oscillators" over 200 years ago,
and Newton use the data to compute the shape of the Earth,
and tides all over the world?

2. Uses the term "relativistic effect" to point out where it isn't needed.

3. Calls "phase time offset" a "relativistic effect".

4. Calls a constant involving Maxwell's permeability of space,
and Maxwell's speed of Electromagnetic waves a "relativistic effect".

5. Calls geometric vectors "relativistic effects".

Note that if the use of the term "relativistic effects"
is proof that General relativity is essential to the GPS System,
then all one has to do is reference my posts,
as I, like techwriters, General Relativity Gurus and Cultists,
newspapers, movies, etc. often use the generic phrase ""relativistic effect".

As I demonstrated in another post today,
as long as a few satellites maintain stable orbits,
and a GPS receiver provided with the orbital data
of the computers can identify the satellites,
it is a simple matter to compute the location of the receiver
limited mainly by random noise and artifact.

It is a sad fact
that General Relativity has cost the world
enormous amounts of time, money and minds.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

--
Tom Potter
http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm

 

Beauty is in the mind of the beholder.

--
Tom Potter
http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm

 

Sammy,
parroting the same claim over and over and over,

and posting the same references
of claim made by people on the taxpayer dole,
over and over and over,

does not make a case for the claim
by General Relativity Cultists and Gurus
that "Relativistic corrections are necessary."

It is more correct make the claim
that as acceleration affects the frequencies of oscillators,

if one wants two identical oscillators
that are subject to different accelerations
oscillate at the same frequency,

that it is necessary to use means other that
acceleration to make the oscillator frequencies match.

Note that this can be done with pendulum lengths,
inductance and capacitance values,
crystal cut and stiffness, mass, spring constant, etc.
depending upon how the type of oscillator involved.

Regarding Sammy's assertion:
"Satellite clocks must be synchronized with the ground based clocks..",

apparently Sammy does not comprehend that
all of the clocks in the GPS Satellites
could ( And do) accumulate different counts (Clock times),

and that the system works just as well
as the satellites advise receivers
what their clock reads with respect to the master clock time.

Another point that Sammy and the General Relativity Cultists and Gurus
don't seem to comprehend is why it is desirable,
but NOT essential to have all oscillators in the GPS System
operating as close as possible to the same frequency.

I have seen them use, and reference,
the 13 Classical Physics hacks of General Relativity
to synchronize the clocks ( When it is not necessary. nor desirable)
and to sync the oscillators ( Which is desirable)
but I have never seem them address
why they want the clocks and oscillators synchronized.

Regarding their fascination with clock synchronization,
apparently GTR Cultists think that it is better to constantly control
satellite clocks, than it is to have GPS receivers
subtract or add counts to four digital counters.

--
Tom Potter
http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm

 

Dear Potter (who is on the taxpayer dole),

The points I make to you are all either part of the historical
record, part of the specification or are all verifiable by direct
observation.

Bluster on, Potter, bluster some more! Froth at the mouth! Whatever!

 

For observers on the earth, making use of satellite clocks, the
general theory of relativity (GTR) predicts gravitational and
relative velocity time dilation. To facilitate clock synchronization
between ground based clocks and satellite clock, an offset in
frequency, precisely predicted by GTR is designed into the Global
Positioning System specific to a designed orbital altitude.

This allows this global navigation satellite system (GNSS) to function
with high precision providing position, time and velocity services.
Historically, it was demonstrated how quickly the system becomes
woefully inaccurate without the relativistically determined clock
correction.

Contrary to what you want to believe, Potter, these relativistic
effects were not observed by Galileo. The first observations that
were only correctly explained by relativity was the precession of
Mercury's perihelion.

Potter's posting record shows that he consistently confuses concepts
such as "acceleration", "Doppler Effect" and "relativistic time dilation".

Here is a nice section by Neil Ashby that goes through the Relativistic
Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png

For whatever reason, Potter refused to learn from this resource.

Bluster on, Potter, bluster some more! Froth at the mouth! Whatever!

 

Sam is always careful to identify sources he shares. Still, in this
lengthy post, more than likely misattribution might've happened. It's
only intolerable when it's deliberate. Falsely editing others'
sentences to make a point is usually begun by Anonymous Bozos, as a
statistically observable rule. Not saying it happened here.

That's your DVM.

Define "REAL"? Understand something. Relax take a breath. Think. You
are the one whose identity is self-admittedly hidden. Can you blame
any Reader for trying to determine who the Author of any message is?
Just think, don't react==type.

You and Sam have at least a 3 month history of interacting with each
other. I've been reading/writing here for about that much time. Can
you blame your Readers from trying to figure out if you really are
Sue?! Even female, given your admission to using an alias? Think, just
think. Your identity is safe within your mindspan.

Usenet is a discussion place. If you want to study, especially for
grades, don't read or post here. Spend that time on your handed out
assignments and textbooks. I hope my son's reading this advice.

Fine. Sleuth away. Find posters you can nod your head in agreement
with at all times. We all want to/a clique. It's human nature. Just
like we Readers want to know who the fruck is posting -- under an
alias or otherwise. Having to waste time on determining an Alias'
Identity is exactly that -- a waste. Can you hide who you are walking
down a street, a mall, a beach? "I'm a million different people from
one day to the next... I can change I can't change" The great Verve
song -- with or w/o video.

So some anonymous poster is threatening another well identified Sam.
Better run Sam! If you need a place to hide, where nobody knows your
name... not Cheers.

List us three professionals here not using their real names. Are they
using Campus resources, laptops, thoughts, or time?

I despise anyone who writes behind a hidden identity. No Aliased-ID
user has a right to write without being despised. False email IDs
started as a way to prevent spam. Fine that. However, sign your god-
damned posts if you want and expect to be read or interacted with
politely. You're cute ID doesn't take away from the fact your Parents,
if you had any, gave you a name to live by.

It also exposes them/all/us to interact with Anonymous Abusers. So
stay away?

The opposite of your analysis is more likely. They the DVMs try to
make Usenet and WWW a more honest place by just trying to resolve a
simple question: Who am I interacting with?

I've for sure forgotten that boxers thongs image this instant.

Hang in there Sam. You are perfectly in the right to try identify who
is who, what age, any sex, any maturity, anywhere on the Planet. That
Anonymous (Ab)Users think they make WebSurfing more comfortable for
themselves; well don't come to the waves to surf if you, of any sex,
can't wear a revealing tiny bikini.

No one is asking you to give out your credit card details. Duh. Public
WWW records are not maintained by Sam. He just knows the tools out
there to use. Reverse searching IP addresses. Google Maps.
Yellowpages. Alumni lists. Students listings. Teachers listings. It's
Private Eye's Dream WWW. Deal with it.

Corporations are background searching you every damn day -- with or
without admitting it. Read of the MySpace or Facebook story regards
keeping kids safe? The Anonymous IDs are high on their list for
tracking. Not ironically, just practically.

What I hate worse than Anonymity, is hidden deep water shark readers,
who never post, who go off and plagiarize thoughts they steal from us
who in the open write. These sharks are out there. They permeate the
Media -- IPMM or otherwise. They can't steal your Identity, but they
will happily, proudly, joyfully steal your message.

Mahipal "I think that is who I was am or will be... I think"

 

Let's say that you were a victim of credit card fraud.
Your identity is available to those who do a bit of work
from online public records... It's not that hard. That's
the way things are. We live in a connected world where
attempts to be anonymous are difficult at best.

What does bother me, and this is all hypothetical, of course,
let's assume you are a professional "scientist", a member of
an international scientific organization. And then wearing
your "Sue" costume, you ridicule Einstein, relativity, and
many facets of modern science on USENET.

Does this not indicate that you might once have been ridiculed
by your own scientific colleagues or somehow never learned the
fundamental physics that you appear to attack?

Just a hypothetical to ponder. Actually I'm glad that is not
your case... and that you probably suffer some other something.

 

Let's cut right to the chase, Potter.

For observers on the earth, making use of satellite clocks, the
general theory of relativity (GTR) predicts gravitational and
relative velocity time dilation. To facilitate clock synchronization
between ground based clocks and satellite clock, an offset in
frequency, precisely predicted by GTR is designed into the Global
Positioning System specific to a designed orbital altitude.

This allows this global navigation satellite system (GNSS) to function
with high precision providing position, time and velocity services.
Historically, it was demonstrated how quickly the system becomes
woefully inaccurate without the relativistically determined clock
correction.

Contrary to what you want to believe, Potter, these relativistic
effects were not observed by Galileo. The first observations that
were only correctly explained by relativity was the precession of
Mercury's perihelion.

Potter's posting record shows that he consistently confuses concepts
such as "acceleration", "Doppler Effect" and "relativistic time dilation".

Here is a nice section by Neil Ashby that goes through the Relativistic
Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png

For whatever reason, Potter refused to learn from this resource.

Bluster on, Potter, bluster some more! Froth at the mouth! Whatever!

 

That is a hypothetical. After I ridicule Einstein
you can fret over it.

Sue...

 

hanson wrote:
Tata boy, Sam!.. because you have finally realized that

**** GPS NEVER NEEDED neither SR nor GR ****
Not for its design, manufacturing, testing nor operations....Sam, GR has NEVER contributed to industry, NOT to GPS,
NOT to Aviation, NOT to shipping, NOT to asset management,
NOT to survey, NOT to mining, NOT to agriculture, NOT to time
dissemination, NOT to communications networks... BUT, GR
did & does benefit people, who are Einstein Dingleberries, in
their mental masturbations, all over the world. . and on and on!
Do NOT Bluster on, Sam, and do NOT Froth at the mouth!
----- It's good to hear that you have finally realized this. -------Thanks for the laughs, though, Sam, ahahahaha... ahahansonPS:
Now, Sam, for your own benefit, go and listen to and learn from
Tom Potter, who is your ever so patient teacher, & then do mind
the advice from Androcles, the ,
and then per-"Sue..." that Dennis & do pay attention to him too.
Do it, by all means, Sam!

 

Yes, let’s do just that.

We should have all agreed on that the satellite clocks must be
synchronized. There are two ways to do so: Satellite-to-satellite
and Satellite-to-ground. Basically, when each satellite receives a
command, it will reset its clock counter to zero after a few counts
depending on its position. Satellite-to-ground signals are subject to
uncertainty due to earth’s atmosphere and ionosphere, etc. Satellite-
to-satellite signals are not handicapped by this. Thus, it is more
accurate.

The next issue is the clock frequencies especially the chipping rate
to convert the 50-bit/sec almanac streaming data into broadbands. I
have already asked you the following two questions and still am
waiting for your answers.

** If satellite chipping rate of 10.23MHz is not corrected for SR or
GR on 450 parts in a trillion, would a GPS receiver using the same
chipping rate work?

Gisse’s answer = no
Professor Andersen = yes

** If the chipping rate is not corrected for that 450 parts in a
trillion, would this error (say it exists) accumulate over time?

Gisse’s answer = yes

Gisse’s answers represent his gross ignorance. What do you expect
from a college drop-out anyway?

If the answer to the first question is yes and the second one to be
no, then that means you do not need any fancier mathematical tools to
work out the problem of GPS other than algebra. So, bringing up any
Einstein Dingleberries’ gross bullsh*t is not discussing GPS. You are
discussing how to apply SR and GR into GPS even if SR and GR are never
needed in GPS designs, and this is a different subject. It is merely
an academic curiosity that bears no resemblance to real-life
applications. <shrug>

 

http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_accuracy.html

 

Sam,
"Edit/find..." on the page of you link does not come up with
neither Einstein nor Relativity. Therefore please garner your
kudos in --------- http://tinyurl.com/b7hd6u -----------hanson

 

So, this is the second time that Sam shows his unsportsmanlike conduct
by opting out of answering my fair questions. In doing so, he tried
to childishly steer the discussion somewhere else. <shrug>

Sam, let’s finish our discussions once and for all by answering these
questions, please. Are you going to chick out by posting nonsense as
replies again?

 

You haven't benefited yet when people point out your errors. Why
should I continue to do so?

 

So, Sam is sort of smart enough to figure out either way the answers
he gives he would lose the debate. That means GPS does not need
either the nonsense of SR or GR for its design considerations.

The morale of Sam’s downfall is that he chooses to embrace mysticism
spoon-fed to him by Einstein Dingleberries since childhood. I did not
manipulate Sam into this pitiable situation. He did so himself. It
pays to be always righteous in the name of science. <shrug>

We still have a lot of de-mystification to do in the meantime. It
becomes entertaining to demystify Einsteinian mysticisms. Ahahaha...

 

--------------------
the most important point in physics
and in science in general is
to be honest!!! (full stop !!)

not to give unjustified credit
and not to deprive from credit
those ones who deserve it

(unlike POLITICS ....!!!)

ATB
Y.Porat

 

I, for one, do not agree that the
"satellite clocks must be synchronized."

In fact, it is not necessary to have clocks on the satellites.

The GPS satellites orbit the Earth in a precise amount of time
*** thus they are very accurate clocks. ***

A GPS receiver can identify the signal from each satellite
by means of its' quasi-random code address,

and can mark orbit completions by observing
the zero beats as each satellite
passes overhead with respect to the receiver,

and at the same time set its' internal clock to time zero
for that satellite.

As the satellites orbit 360 degrees in about 12 hours (43200 seconds)
and low cost oscillators have a stability of about .1 part per million per day

after a receiver acquires a zero beat, it knows where
it is in reference to that satellite
to better than one ten millionth of an orbit,
which is about ten feet,

and after acquiring transmissions from several satellites
( Not necessarily zero beats.)
and performing a least squares computation on the data,
the receiver can home in even closer to where it is.

In order to find its' position,
a GPS receiver has to know:

1. The orbital data of the satellites.
2. The distance to four satellites.

From any known point, or later computed point,
a GPS receiver can assemble its' own data base
of the satellite's orbits from in phase (Orbital)
and quadrature (Precession) zero beats.

It makes more sense to use satellite orbits as clocks.

Why use the year as a clock,
adjust for variations in the year,
adjust the output of a bank of atomic oscillators
to synchronize with the year,
massage the data with 13 hacks of General Relativity,
upload this data to many satellites,
and adjust the satellite oscillators and clocks,

when it is a simple matter
to synchronize GPS receivers using the satellite orbits.

The period of satellite orbits is much more
reliable and TRUSTWORTHY than the time
input into the system by a third party.

No atomic clocks,
no "Relativity effects",
no untrusted or unreliable times, no almanacs,
no chain of time synchronizations,
no 13 hacks of General Relativity,
no hocus pocus and no hand waving.

--
Tom Potter
http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm

 

Sammy is right when he notes that
"relativistic effects were not observed by Galileo"

Galileo, with his original and creative experiments
OBSERVING the EFFECTS
of time, acceleration, velocity, forces
celestial motions, etc. was a clear thinker,
and provided the stimulus for the rapid advancement of physics.

On the other hand, by trying to extend
the model (Stresses and strains) and methods (Tensors)
of the stress analysis engineers, to model
structures inhabited by sentient beings,

Einstein created an auguring system that introduced babble
into physics with such concepts as rubber clocks and rulers,
time travel, worm holes, space warps,
the beginning and end of the universe, etc.

eliminated sentient man from the universe,

inhibited the advancement of science,

and wasted time, money and minds.

The fact of the matter is that NO ONE has ever
observed "relativistic effects".

What people have observed are effects first noted
by people like Galileo (Acceleration effect),
Doppler (Velocity effect), Hubble (Distance effect), etc.

Sammy, like most people, has been conditioned
by the mass media to steal credit from thousands
of hard-working, creative folks,
and attribute the work to the Media's Poster Boy
for Jewish intelligence, by obfuscating the original work,
lumping it all together under the generic term "relativistic effects".

And as can be seen by his parroting, personal attacks,
and his reluctance to come to grips with the
physical aspects of the GPS System,
Sammy does not understand the system,

and is reluctance to give credit where credit is due
for making the GPS System a reality. Rocket technology,
integrated circuits, microprocessor technology,
information theory and digital communications technology,

and of course, the giants upon whose shoulders
today's creative engineers stand:
Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Doppler, Edison, etc.

--
Tom Potter
http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm