Odd Question regarding the Garmin 35-HVS Receiver Antennae

[Nuvi-Nebie]

Congratulations - it worked ! !, the time in your picture is 55 mins and 41 seconds past midnight on the 3rd. June 2020 (GMT), which is 4 hours ahead of when you took the picture (20:55 2nd. June 2020 EDT*), so that works out correctly

*EDT = Eastern Daylight Time = EST + 1 hour (used for summer months)

BTW
I have edited your picture in post #20 to remove your GPS location as I thought you may want to keep it private

 

[proton32060]

Nuvi,

Here is my final question.
To recap so you don’t have to read the whole post again.
The sign, Clock, Controller, and GPS were originally installed in 2007.
I didn’t know the GPS had gone out until I repainted the sign and put the clock back together.

That’s when I realized the GPS wasn’t working and took the original GPS unit apart and realized it was nothing but a pile of rust inside a plastic case. So it could have gone out only a few years after the sign was built and I never even realized it.

So here is the point.

Before I knew the 35-HVS would not work straight out of the box or knew they could be updated I found a guy on Ebay selling 35-HVS units new in the box for $19.00 a piece and he had nine to sell.

I bought five of them.
The reason should be obvious.
I knew they were outdated and I would probably never find a deal like that again so I bought myself a lifetime supply.

I sealed all the seams on the new one with silicone so hopefully it will keep water out and last longer than the first one did.
I am already setup to update the other four units so I might as well do them now while everything is setup and it is just a matter of time before the new one I just updated could go out like the first one did.

So having four spares already updated and ready to go would make sense since it is unlikely I would remember the procedure as well as I do now years down the road.

So here are my questions:

First, once updated do they stay updated forever even in they sit in the box unused for years until I may finally need one of them?

Second, and remember I have no understanding what the update is really doing. I am just a monkey pushing the buttons I was told to in the order I was told.
I noticed during the procedure it asked me to save the configuration on my laptop and then asked me to reload it back into the GPS unit. The configuration was saved as a file in the documents folder.

So here is the question.
Since the other four are identical could I just load the final configuration that is still on my laptop into the other four directly or would it be better to go through the whole update procedure again for each one.

And if I can load the final configuration file onto the new ones directly is there a shorter routine of steps that would accomplish it?

Thanks for all your time and help.
You have been very patient and I really appreciate it.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

once updated do they stay updated forever

No guarantees but there is a very good chance the answer is yes, when a GPS is turned on for the very first time it has a much harder job to get a satellite 'fix' than it does when turned on after only a few hours of working, this is because it stores info. from the last good 'fix' which can be used next time it is powered on, the list of things it stores include :- Almanac (a database of roughly where the satellites are in the sky which is good for 2 - 3 months), Location (only useful if the GPS hasn't moved too far since last 'fix', Time / Date (Used with almanac to re-create a picture of which satellites to look out for.

All the above data (and more) is stored in something called NVM or Non Volatile Memory this is memory that is maintained when the unit is powered off but can be updated when necessary like the modern microSD card in your cell phone, however this kind of 'flash' memory is relatively new and was either unavailable or very expensive back when GPS started, back then the NVM was kept going by a small backup battery permanently fixed inside the unit

I don't think the 35 HVS has a battery backed NVM but it may have a very small 'flash' memory, so as long as you can power off the unit for say a few days and it still remembers it is in 2020 rather than 2000 or 1980 then it should be OK.

could I just load the final configuration that is still on my laptop

Yes, But I don't think you need to, When you connect another 35 HVS to your laptop running SNSRCFG for the first time It doesn't have a good configuration file, so it is starting from scratch (this is where some older units struggle to get that first 'fix'), however once it gets it's first fix, it has a good config. file so it has no need for the config. file from your laptop, all it needs is the correct date.

I think the only steps from the setup procedure it requires are 17 and 18, 17 copies the good config. from the 35 HVS to the Laptop and 18 sends exactly the same config. back to the 35 HVS BUT with one big difference, it also sends the time from the laptop's clock including the date to the 35 HVS, so 17 followed by 18 is probably all that is required, I think you may only need :-

1 - 4 setup
11 Check Date in NMEA for $GPRMC having time position date (Wait until you have this data)
17 get good config data from 35 HVS
18 send good config back to 35HVS with time from computer
11 re-check NMEA for $GPRMC having time position correct date
16 power cycle GPS receiver, repeat steps 1 - 4,
11 re-check NMEA for $GPRMC having time position correct date

Notes :-
1) It would be good to take a picture of the NMEA screen before doing an 18 to see what the old date was on one unit
2) I left out step 9 (Use Config/Sensor Configuration) in the original procedure because it resets NVM which is risky if you can make it work without doing so

 

[proton32060]

Well nuvi,
I got some good news and I got some bad news.
The good news is of the four extra units I have ( excluding the one going back in the clock) two updated perfectly and effortlessly and the last two refused to budge.
It was weird because that was how it went.
The first two were grabbed at random and updated without a hitch while the last two refused to budge.

And I tried everything:
1) I tried going through all the original steps you outlined- nothing
2) I tried setting the clock on the computer ahead 9 years and following those steps- still nothing.
3) I finally tried step 9 erasing the non-volatile memory and trying the whole procedure again- still nothing.
4) I finally resorted to taking the configuration from a good one and loading it directly into one of the ones that would not update and even that didn't work.

I honestly can't think of anything else to do unless you have some ideas.

The only thing I did not try because I was getting tired and it was starting to rain was to try setting the computer ahead another 9 years each time on that part of the procedure until I got to 2047, but I got tired and it started to rain.

I also can't remember if I tried erasing the non-volatile memory and then going straight to ramming the good configuration right down its uncooperative throat.

I can't remember if I did that because like I said I was getting tired. Maybe I will try that tomorrow. I think I may have already tried but I was getting tired and that and setting ahead another 9 years each time on that part of the procedure are the last options I can think of.

Either way, I have one good one and two good spares and I wouldn't have had that without your help so you have my undying gratitude.

But I can not understand why all five units are completely identical and three would update but the last two wouldn't.

If you got any ideas I would appreciate it but if I have reached the end of my rope on this I am still happy.
I still have one for the clock and two spares which is a lot more than I had before you helped me out.

Is there a way you can screw these things up so bad that even with a good configuration to load you can still ruin it beyond repair?


Update: After I wrote this post I got mad at the stupid thing and did every last ditch effort I could think of mentioned above and nothing worked.
For whatever reason in spite of them all being identical two just won't cooperate and this time I really did try everything, including every step listed on the original list, even the ones you said I didn't need.
And still nothing.
I did erase the non-volatile memory and then loaded the configuration from a good one directly into it and it still would not update.
It may be time to give up.

One final question and I know this a long shot.
Does the update program save any configuration data either in itself or anywhere else on the computer?
Besides the file it saves coming straight from the GPS itself.
I know this is not likely but the only thing left is to delete the update program, the config from the GPS and start with a fresh copy of the program.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

There are a few possibilities, I can think of, the last 2 could simply be not working for some reason, however it does seem a coincidence that the first 2 passed and the second 2 failed, so maybe the process itself stopped working for some reason, Questions :-

1) Did the first 3 units have to repeat the process after step 11 in the post #17 or did it work first time?

2) Did you have to change the (Current) date on your computer in order to get the first 3 unit to work?

3) Have you re-tried any of the 3 'Good' unit's NMEA sentences a few days after programming them to see if the date remains at 2020?

4) Do the remaining 2 'failed' units work in every other respect?, e.g. do they return NMEA like the one below with the exception of the date ( a picture would be good)

5) Cay you see anything different about the 2 'failed' units? e.g. any wording on the unit slightly different or wire colour (color) or number of wires etc?

Is there a way you can screw these things up so bad that even with a good configuration to load you can still ruin it beyond repair?

If the bad units can return a $GPRMC filled with Time, Position and Date they are still working

$GPRMC,092750.000,A,5321.6802,N,00630.3372,W,0.02,31.66,280511,,,A*43

Does the update program save any configuration data either in itself or anywhere else on the computer?

As far as I can see the SNSRCFG program does not write any configuration files to the computer, you could copy the exe file to another folder on your computer and run it from there but it's a long shot

If the answer to 4) is Yes then you have proved 3 of the 4 wires are connected correctly and only the Blue wire could be in doubt.

 

[proton32060]

Nuvi:

Here are the answers:

1) Did the first 3 units have to repeat the process after step 11 in the post #17 or did it work first time?
They all worked the first time.

2) Did you have to change the (Current) date on your computer in order to get the first 3 unit to work?
No, they all upgraded without that being necessary.

3) Have you re-tried any of the 3 'Good' unit's NMEA sentences a few days after programming them to see if the date remains at 2020?
Yes, and they still work properly.

4) Do the remaining 2 'failed' units work in every other respect?, e.g. do they return NMEA like the one below with the exception of the date ( a picture would be good).
They may or may not, I did not compare them.

There is one thing you told me to do I didn’t do.
I did not take any pictures before starting or when I was finished last night.
The sentences did seem a little strange between the two bad units and the good ones but I did not take a picture of them.
I just kept running through the various steps trying everything I could think of when the steps that worked on the first three failed.

Yes, I know you told me to take pictures at the time but like I said, we have been working day and night and trying to pry my wife’s Ipad away from her was something I didn’t feel like getting into last night.

I did notice on one attempt way down in the sentences it thought it was a 25 instead of a 35 unit but that was only one time.

But I did take a picture over lunch today and it is included.

5) Can you see anything different about the 2 'failed' units? e.g. any wording on the unit slightly different or wire color (color) or number of wires etc?
No. They are identical to all the others.
That I did check including the Model numbers on the bottom of all them and they are all identical.

If you want to know the truth I probably should not have been messing with them at all, at least not right now.
I am tired, in fact more than tired and have been that way since the lock down ended.

But I did go through exactly the same steps on each one initially and the first two worked and the last two didn’t.
It would not surprise me that if they can be ruined I ruined them.

I did go through each step exactly as described with the paper in one hand while I was working on the PC with the other.
At least for the first three or four tries.

When that didn’t work that was when I started inventing my own solutions like clearing the memory and immediately loading a good configuration from one of the good ones.

One thing I did do just now over lunch was try increasing the voltage.
Each upgrade was done at only 8 volts and it worked.
What I did just now over lunch was increase the voltage to 20 volts and tried again.
It made no difference.

I am including a picture of the screen after the final attempt over lunch but it didn’t change from what I saw last night.

Below is the picture and the screen is identical to what I saw last night.


You said maybe the blue wire is in doubt.
The leads on these units are pretty short.
I could try soldering a longer lead on the blue and white wires to make sure they are really connected if you think that would help.

Actually, I did just compare the two pictures and the second one posted here compared to the one I posted earlier showing it worked are different.
The one I just posted doesn't seem to have a date entry at all. In fact, none of it looks the same. Maybe I did mis-wire it but I don't think so.
I will check it again tonight.
If the blue wire might not be making a good connection then maybe I should try again. But if the readout means I ruined the last two then there isn't much left to say.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

Well, the picture is Quite revealing the sentences show:-

GPGGA = a position near Garmin International Ka
GPGSA = No satellites are supplying any data
GPGSV = says satellites No.s 1 - 12 are in view (but they're not) as all data is missing
GPRMC = No Time,Invalid Data,a Position near Garmin International Ka, no Date

In a nutshell, it can't see any satellites, an easy way to tell in the GPRMC is to look for :-
GPRMC,,A, or GPRMC,,V, . . . A = Valid Data . . . V = Invalid Data

So the 2 power wires and the data TX (Output) wires are OK and Blue RX (Input) wire is only used when sending config. to the unit, when first power up a good unit it will output MNEAs with invalid data until it gets a fix, it will then change the 'V' to an 'A' in GPRMC without you doing any other steps

As the sentences in the picture have not got valid data, it is worth just connecting power and leaving it for some time ( maybe an hour or so ) as older units can take some time to get this first fix, look for a change from the 'V' to an 'A', it should do this without you performing any other steps

 

[proton32060]

Nuvi,
I think it is time to give up.

Being a glutton for punishment I went out messing with it again after work. While I was viewing the same sentences I showed you a friend came by to talk so I just let them set there on the screen.

After two minutes everything blinked and things started updating and the time and date did finally come up ( see picture) but again it thought it was October of 2000.

So I went through the routine you originally outlined and it would not update.
Then I tried setting the clock ahead 9 years and doing that procedure.
It still didn’t update.

So then I went through setting the clock ahead 9 years each time until I got to 2047 and followed the rest of the procedure.
It still would not update.

Each time it took over two minutes to acquire the satellites in spite of the first three finding them instantly. But regardless it still would not update.


Now here is the really great news:

You asked me if the ones I updated earlier held their settings and I said yes.
But what I was checking were the two that I successfully updated last night.

Tonight as a last ditch effort I got the one I updated last week that you told me congratulations on and hooked it up to pull its configuration. But when I read the sentences it had gone back to 2000.
It lost the update in one week.

When I went through your original update routine again like I did the first time it updated and did show the correct date and year.
But it did that last week and still lost the update a week later.

This doesn’t seem like it is going to work.
Even the one that did update did not hold the update even seven days before it reverted back to its original settings.

Maybe it is time to give up and check the clock against a cell phone once a month and make any adjustments from there.

If you want them I will send them to you for free if you think you might have a use for them. And I will pay the shipping. I spent over a hundred dollars on them and they are obviously useless to me.
If you might have some use for them I will gladly ship them to you

This just doesn’t seem to be meant to be a fixable problem, at least for me.
Below are some of the pictures on the screen after it finally acquired the satellites and all the other screens it displayed.

Note: I had it display every sentence available.
I figured I had nothing to lose.

But I don’t think we are getting anywhere with this.
It might be time to give up.

Unless you see something in these screens that means anything worthwhile I think I have had enough and I am sure you have.
If you don’t find anything worthwhile and you still want them let me know and they are yours.
I no longer have any use for them.
Not anymore.

I appreciate all your help and if you don’t want them I want to thank you for all the trouble you went to on my behalf.
I am just sorry I wasted so much of your time.I am tempted to tear one apart and see if there is a lithium cell in them somewhere I can replace.
You may already know but I am going back into the shed now and tear one apart.
They are not good for anything the way they are anyway.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

I think there is a good chance it will still work, if you had to go through this proceedure every time you turned on your GPS then yes it's a lost cause, but you don't have to do that because your GPS will be powered 24/7, so as long as you can give it the correct date, disconnect it and re-connect it to the 'Clock' it will keep it's date permanently

If you do open one of your units ( using one of the that don't work so well), look for something like this in my GPS38 :-



Some batteries that are fitted (like the VL1220 above) are rechargable, so leaving units powered for long periods could help with poor memory retention

I have just found this in the 35-HVS user guide, if does have a rechargeable battery inside and although it is 20 years old it may still be usable

If you can fit a unit with the correct date to your 'Clock' and power it up it should keep it's new date permanently and re-charge the internal battery giving you up to 6 months battery backup, the other units need to be powered up for a few days to re-charge the internal battery, but will still only store with the correct date for at best 6 months before needing a re-date

Notes
1) I have edited your pictures IMG_175 and IMG_176 to remove location Data
2) In Image-176 the date is stored as 26 October 2000 = Rollover Block2 22Aug1999 + 62 Weeks)
the current date e.g. 11JUN2020 = Rollover Block3 6APR2020 + 62 Weeks),

 

[proton32060]

I did tear it open and it is essentially a circuit board soldered into one piece with an antennae on top. It took destroying the case to even get into it. There is no way to get it apart without destroying it.

The only thing that worries me is hurricanes.
We can lose power for days and once installed, getting it out to reprogram it would be horrendous.
I will try the two I reprogrammed Tuesday next week.
If they are still holding the update then it may be worth a try.
But if they have lost it then it is probably better to pass.
The longest we have gone without power from a hurricane is 5 days.
If the GPS will hold its settings at least that long then it will be worth it.
If not, it is probably not worth the chance.
Once installed it would be more trouble than it is worth to get it out of the building, re-program it, and then reinstall it again.

I doubt the internal battery in the clock controller itself keeps power to the GPS. But I guess I could cut the power and check the voltage at the GPS terminals on the clock controller.

Another alternative is if you know of a battery backup that could go between the clock controller power and the GPS to keep power to it in a blackout. Apparently it can be between 6-40 volts. I would be open to that idea in a second if the backup unit didn't cost a fortune and you could replace the batteries.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

I hear what you are saying, but the units need to be connected to a power supply straight away - continuously, to give them a fair chance of retaining data, you could wire all of them in parallel to your bench power supply (all Black wires together and all Red Wires together) for a few days* at say 6 Volts - They only need power, no other wires

* If you have a unit displaying the correct date and want to connect it to your 'Clock', I would leave it connected to a power supply for at least a few hours, as these units have probably only been charged-up for the few minutes it took you to change the date on them which isn't enough, once installed and powered up it will be fine

Did the unit you opened look like this inside?, this is a GPS25 but I have a feeling that a 35 in a 25 in a waterproof box

 

[proton32060]

Yes, it looked like the second picture ( GPS-25) but there was a square glued to the top of it which may have been the antennae. There was no way to get inside of it without destroying it. It was one lump with the two plates on either side soldered into one piece. If there is a battery in it you could not get to it without destroying it.
In fact, even getting it out destroyed the case it was in.

Nuvi, there are times you get into something like this and after awhile you get to the point of, " I am gonna beat this sucker if it is the last thing I do".

You just get so much time invested it stops being a project and becomes a contest between you or "it".
And you won't rest if you let "it" win.
I think we have reached that point.

I had an idea which may sound crazy but may not be.

About 18" away from the clock controller is the main panel of my Burglar alarm system.
It has a "12 volt /5 Ah" Lead Acid Battery in it that the panel keeps charged so the alarm continues to work in the event of an extended blackout like from a hurricane.
It even beeps at you when the battery starts getting low so you can replace it before it goes completely out.

How about this:

Tying the GPS power into the 12 volt supply in the Burglar alarm instead of the clock controller and running the data lines only to the clock controller.

That way the GPS has a uninterrupted backup power supply of 12 volts which would probably last maybe two weeks in a hurricane blackout depending on how much power the GPS pulls.

That would provide a reliable source of uninterrupted power to the GPS regardless if the power goes out to the clock controller or not.
Even if the power is out and the clock controller is merely using the small Lithium Battery in it to retain the settings and nothing else the GPS is still getting a steady 12 volts from the Burglar Alarm backup battery.

What do you think about that idea?

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

I realise it's a bit of an unknown when it comes to how long the internal battery will last when fully charged, but I think even an old battery that promises 6 months when new is better than 5Ah burglar alarm battery which will be supplying a GPS that takes 140mA, it would only last about 35 hours even if the burglar alarm took no power at all, You could fully charge the internal batteries and then test how long they last over time, but my guess is it will be many days if not weeks

There could also be a problem connecting the Alarm and the clock circuitry together as they would have a common ground

 

[proton32060]

Okay,
Quick question.
I bought this DC Power supply years ago from a military surplus and have had it 35 years.
Point is we are leaving today until Monday and don't want to leave it on and leave it that long.
Assuming 6-8 volts output, how long do you think I should let them charge?
24hrs?
48hrs?

Doesn't matter, I just need to know but I don't want to do it today and leave it unattended in my shed for the next three days.
It is so old I just want to be here to keep an eye on it while it is on.
I have never turned in on and just left it and don't trust it enough to do that.

You are going to get annoyed with me but assuming the clock power to the GPS is 12 volts, how would you feel about this as an extra backup safeguard between the clock power and the GPS?

https://www.amazon.com/Quality-6000...erruptible+power+supply&qid=1591901039&sr=8-8

I may not know enough about these things but are the batteries in these units able to hold their charge for weeks in a power outage?
I may be underestimating how long a charged battery in a GPS really lasts. That is why I am suggesting this because I really don't know that much about them.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

Is it possible to take the power supply and GPSs with you?, even charging for a few hours should retain the data for days

 

[proton32060]

Is it possible to take the power supply and GPSs with you?, even charging for a few hours should retain the data for days

Yes, I can and will.
At home I can let it charge for three days if necessary.
I just don't want to leave it in my office shed unattended.
For the Record you figured out where my office is from the GPS readouts you blurred out, our condo is in Daytona 170 miles away so yes I can take it all with me and do that.
In fact, if it is with me I will let them charge three days.
I just want to be there to keep an eye on it.

Better read my post again before your last reply , I added some to it while you were writing your reply.

nuvi, it might be time to say, Alec, chill out and trust me".
Just charge them up, put them in, and quit fretting about it.
Everything will be fine.
I just don't know enough about these units to know what I am talking about. Like I said, I can tell you everything you want to know about teeth and anatomy but not GPS units.

Better still, I will say it for you.
"Alec, shut up, listen, and do what I say and everything will be fine".

There.
I just saved you from typing it yourself.

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

how would you feel about this as an extra backup

The problem with an external battery back-up is the amount of power the GPS uses when it is working, it uses 120-140mA, so the 5Ah alarm battery will last about 35-40 hours, the Amazon UPS is 2Ah so it will last about 14-16 hours, the internal battery is tiny BUT when the main power is taken away the GPS stops working, however a very small part of the circuitry is kept powered in standby, this keeps the date, position and almanac etc. going, when in standby the GPS power requirments are less than 0.3mA which is about 450 times less power

For the Record you figured out where my office is from the GPS readouts you blurred out

Yes, I've viewed your Electric Clock on Streetview, very impressive, and your GPS location does seem to point to the clock rather than the building

I do think that the units will be OK when charged, if they aren't, there are things we could try with an external battery backup, but it would require something extra to make it work, I found out what the extra wires do that are on your 35HVS and the yellow one is a 'standby' option, you could use it to vastly reduce the power requirement of the GPS when the 'Mains' power fails and then an external Battery could cope with GPS supply for some time

 

[proton32060]

Nuvi,

Well, I let the three charge for three days over the weekend.
I checked them tonight and they had all lost the update so I updated them again and they accepted it and are displaying the correct date.
I also charged up the one that would not update but it had no effect, it still would not update.

How long would you suggest I leave them before I check to see if they have held the update.
Would 7 days be about right or would you suggest a shorter interval?
Thanks

 

[Nuvi-Nebie]

It really depends on how long you get breaks in mains power, if you can connect a 35HVS to your Clock Controller and it displays the correct date, then it will do this indefinitely because the unit will be powered 24/7, the only situation that the backup battery will be called into action will be during a power cut, so if you only get a power cut for a maximum of say 2 days, then the battery backup only has to last that long

I'm not sure where the 35HVS is placed, is it next to the clock or is it on the main building?, I guess it needs to be waterproof?, I am asking because it would a lot easier to install if you didn't have to remove and reinstall the cable to the 35HVS, if it had a plug and socket arrangement very close the 35HVS itself if would take only a few seconds to remove / install / re-install which would help with testing the unit(s)

 

[proton32060]

Actually it is on the side of the building even with the roof line.
The cable from the GPS runs through around 20 feet or more of conduit to the clock controller not counting the three feet of soffit that extends from the side of the building to the edge of the roof.

Point is it is very difficult to install and not that much easier to remove. So no, there is no good or quick way to get it on or off.
Once it is mounted it would take a good while to get it out and even more to re-install it.
Actually much more trouble than it would be worth.
If it came down to that it would be easier just to synchronize the clock to our cell phone once a month.
The only other alternative is a reliable way of providing it a backup power source in the event of a hurricane and extended blackout.