Clarification about the term "GPS Shutdown"

[Mxsmanic]

During a day it's not all that bad - you can usually still see the sun
through the clouds.

Not anywhere where I've lived. A cloud cover light enough to show the
position of the sun but still concealing it is very rare.

One of the reasons for GPS is to get around the problems with all the
archaic navigation methods that you've been suggesting. Too many people
were getting lost ... and they were trained people in the military.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Which is why they have more than one backup...

The problem is not having them, it's that they often aren't used.

For the ATC, another radar. Or if everything breaks down, they might
call the Pentagon and ask them to launch an AWACS bird if they're
really desperate.

The Pentagon keeps these idling on taxiways with 50 km of every point in
the country?

If you were going in the right direction before the outage, why should
you suddenly be flying circles?

Because you no longer know where you are going, or even whether or not
you're going in a straight line.

 

[Sam Wormley]

The Pentagon keeps these idling on taxiways with 50 km of every point in
the country?

Like they had fighters available during 9/11?

 

[Iolaos]

Just how did the pilgrims manage to find the USA?

They were the only vessel on the Atlantic at the time.

And they weren't travelling at 500 miles per hour.

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

I grew out of that long ago. I don't think I'd find the organization
interesting, especially if it is still depending on the moss on trees
for navigation.

During the last gulf war, the US Army found out the hard way that you
can't always depend on having enough batteries for all that new-fangled
gear...


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

The Pentagon keeps these idling on taxiways with 50 km of every point in
the country?

No, actually there should be 2 or 3 of them up every our of every day -
at least they used to do that back in the old days, and after 9/11 the
sortie rate went up even more, which meant that NORAD had to borrow
the AWACS planes normally stationed in Europe (NATO E-3A component,
home-based in Geilenkirchen).

Because you no longer know where you are going, or even whether or not
you're going in a straight line.

The compass stopped working just because GPS is down? That is, BOTH of
them (Gyro- AND Magnetic) stopped working?


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

One of the reasons for GPS is to get around the problems with all the
archaic navigation methods that you've been suggesting. Too many people
were getting lost ... and they were trained people in the military.

There's a huge supply of second lieutenants, so having some of them got
lost isn't a problem. Properly trained soldiers (Sergeant or above)
don't have that problem.

And the US Army already found out the hard way that GPS, Night vision
and other toys have one major drawback: They require batteries. Lots of
batteries, actually - which can be a problem if the patrol you're on
takes a few days longer than expected. In such cases you'll be
gratefull if some of your people still can use those "archaic
navigation methods".


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

In which direction do Christians pray?

Outside of churches, any direction they want. But if you manage to find
a christian between Mecca and Medina, you can simply ask him for the
way...

I guess the methods you suggest aren't valid for the tropics, then.

You can still find out which way east and west are, because that's
where the sun will be at dawn and dusk.

Not if you are moving.

So you'll have to wait - which isn't a big deal as you don't know where
to go yet anyway.

Which one is the polar star?

Know the constellation "Great Bear"? On the box-like part of it,
opposite from the tail, draw an imaginary line that extends 2.5 times
the length of that side. You'll see a not very bright single star.
That's the polar star.

Why would I want such blast to the distant past? Nobody navigates with
moss and stars today. Neither method is certified by the FAA, either.

You might have to do so when your batteries run out.

Why would that happen?

Why should one ever wake up in the wrong hemisphere? You're the one who
came up with silly examples, now accept that it's perfectly possible to
find your way without GPS.

Why are any of these being discussed? None of them is a terrorist
activity, and none of them is a frequent use of navigation among
civilians.

This particular sub-thread is about your inability to grasp that people
will still be able to navigate quite effectively without the help of
GPS. Even if you obviously don't have a clue about this subject, most
people manage that quite well.

Maps are notoriously unreliable. Direct observation works better.

So you simply go where that little arrow on your GPS is pointing? Bad
idea, in many parts of the world...


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

How? And what if you start at dawn?

You'll only have to wait for half a day, unless your definition of noon
is radically different from the rest of the world.

The detour is the same, though.

Not necessarily. If you plan your route in advance, you won't need to
double back for miles after discovering that the way you wanted to go
was a dead end.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Iolaos]

help.

Which is why they have more than one backup...


For the ATC, another radar. Or if everything breaks down, they might
call the Pentagon and ask them to launch an AWACS bird if they're
really desperate.

There is no radar coverage over an ocean.

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Well, in my younger days I did have occasion to start a tractor by
setting fire to a bale of straw under the sump, then pushing it down a
hill and slamming it into 2nd (no synchro on first, can't get into
gear when not moving). Admittedly the tractor ran on TVO not straight
diesel but hey' whats a few evil esters between friends?
gd&r

There's actually lots of fans of those old tractors in Germany, mostly
of the old Lanz-Bulldog tractors with their one-cylinder 2-stroke
diesels.

Impressive machines... but of course way off-topic, so F'up2p

Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

I have this odd feeling that we've known the map coordinates of say
London or San Fransisco since quite some time before GPS were
invented. Its kind of as though the coordinates were designed to match
the map or something....

And I get the feeling that our little maniac is still wondering what
those people in London thought when they discovered that the 0°
Meridian is running straight through the old observatory in
Greenwich... such a coincidence, and the people who built that
observatory couldn't have known, after all they didn't have
GPS!!1eleven!

SCNR

Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

There is no radar coverage over an ocean.

No. But over the ocean, the pilot knows which way he's heading (East or
West), and he can simply continue that way until he gets into radar
coverage again. He will have enough fuel for that - overwise he
wouldn't have made it back to an airport even WITH GPS.

And even without GPS, any airline pilot will still be able to tell
which direction he's flying - I hope we all agree on that


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Alan Browne]

Alan Browne writes:




Nobody that I know of died at the World Trade Center, either.

I said "know of", not "know". "know of" would have been a report in the press.

It doesn't matter once they execute the plan.

That depends on preparedness in the defense.

 

[Alan Browne]

precision agriculture on a global scale

Lack of GPS for a few days won't harm this in a significant manner.

precision guided ordinance

C/A is off or S/A'd to death. P/Y is fine. Television, Radar and Laser guided
munitions don't care. Where GPS affects guidance, it will be part of the
decision in any case.

precision mapping of utility poles, oil wells

This will hardly suffer a few days delay.

tracking of wildlife

Less so.

automobile navigation systems

Get a map.

Cheers,
Alan

 

[Alan Browne]

I agree with that. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that
the Pentagon has contingency plans for invading Canada. Just because
there is a contingency plan it doesn't necessarily follow that the plan
is likely to be implemented. That's why I've dropped out of the threads
- the S/N ratio has become too high.

The N/S you mean? Or the S/N is too low?

I agree and other than some parting slices, I'm outta here too!

Cheers,
Alan.

 

[High Sierra]

During the last gulf war, the US Army found out the hard way that you
can't always depend on having enough batteries for all that new-fangled
gear...


Juergen Nieveler

I wonder if Mxsmanic is wondering why everyone is disagreeing with him.

An old lady watching a parade commented that while the soldiers looked nice in
their uniforms, they could use marching practice because only her son was in step.

 

[Mxsmanic]

And at a wild guess, how did they know which way was west.

They used a compass.

But surely its inconcievable that anyone could navigate
without GPS.

Why would it be inconceivable? It's just more difficult, in most cases
today.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Lets remember the context of this argument is your bizarre insistence that
its virtually impossible to navigate w/o GPS ...

I've never said that.

... and that map and compass are useless.

I've never said that, either.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Neither does anyone else, except the occasional ballistic missile or
obsessive navnut.

Or the frequent landing aircraft.

If I'm flying to Newark and I get within a mile or so, I don't need GPS to
get me the rest of the way.

If visibility is zero, you need _something_, and it may as well be GPS,
preferably DGPS.