Clarification about the term "GPS Shutdown"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam Wormley
  • Start date Start date
Juergen said:
Airplanes have backup systems, and every other system of transportation
could simply stop and ask for help.

Aviation experience shows that backup systems often don't help.
There's a thing called "RADAR", and ATC should have a pretty good idea
of where each plane within its range is at any given time.

What happens when radar breaks down? What are the backups?
For transoceanic flights, simply keep flying in the same direction until
the ATC can spot you.

Drawing upon the infinite quantity of fuel in your tanks.
Why should it change?

It shouldn't, if it's primary navigation.
 
Alan said:
Basic VFR requires no more than a magnetic compass, T&B,
airspeed, altimeter and a clock.

VFR is notoriously unreliable.
A 'decently' equipped IFR single engine aircraft would have 1 ADF, 2 VOR's, 1 GS
receiver, MB RX and hopefully a DME.

What happens if all of these stop working?
B-777 was the first airliner built that had GPS designed in from the intitial
design stage ... but can of course navigate on its INS, VOR, DME, ADF systems
quite well including CAT III approach (ILS+INS) if the GPS is Tango-Uniform.

Can it do Cat III or transoceanic with ADF?
 
Sam Wormley said:
400,000 per month to keep up with GPS receiver sales according to
"GPS World".
That seems a non-sequiter. What are you saying?

BTW, I'm not taking the opposite side of the discussion from you, just
adding my 1.5 ¢ worth on the discussion about navigating without GPS.

I too am angry about what is happening in the U.S. these days. Eugene
McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover would be proud.

Frank
 
Alan said:
Not in a number of plausible cases.

Describe a few.
Low cost, accurate guidance.

If they can afford missiles or other vehicles they can afford guidance
systems.
Guide an unmanned boat into an LNG facility loaded with Semtex.

Guide an unammed aircraft into a nuke station conatinment dome, loaded with Semtex.

These can be done without GPS.
1) Mx, You have not named a single critical thing that is wholly dependant on
GPS (though asked repeatedly by me and at least one other poster).

You have not given a single terrorism scenario that would be effectively
foiled by turning off GPS.
I doubt that there is anyyhing in existence
that is so dependant on GPS as to present a hazard or danger the moment GPS
signal is lost. And if there is it should be immediately decommisioned or
rectified.

Whereas it's okay to depend on VOR, right?
You've tediously harped on the effect of major GPS loss. I've countered
reasonably: a) it won't be so bad; b) the duration will be short c) workarounds
are many.

The one thing you haven't done is provide a justification for turning
off GPS in the first place.
Unmanned Boats, UAV's.

What's wrong with gyroscopes?

How did the German rockets ever get to England without GPS?
Cheap, easy, accurate. UAV's have been around since WW II, probably before.
But nothing has enabled their stunning emergence over the past 10 years as much
as a single resource called GPS which allows low cost, low weight, accurate and
reliable guidance.

They don't use computers?
 
Juergen said:
Never claimed that.

I said within a cycle. That's 20 milliseconds in Europe.
Ever heard the term "UPS", apart from parcel
delivery?

Yes. But a diesel generator is not a UPS.
A loney putting chemical time-bombs in several US cities, set to
explode at the same time, synchronized by GPS, without any other
methods of synchronisation because the loney thinks that GPS would
never be shut down.

Nobody would be that stupid. Especially since it's so much easier to
just put a cheap clock in each bomb. Who needs GPS for that?
You'll claim that if companies have contingency plans, so will the
terrorist ...

That is inevitable.
... but the difference is that companies shouldn't be run by
loneys...

Terrorists are not usually crazy.
 
..

If you consider the equipment required to maintain RNP 10 across
the Pacific a luxury, then you must not run an airline.
Aircraft dependant. Basic VFR requires no more than a magnetic compass, T&B,
airspeed, altimeter and a clock.

Very few, if any, airlines are authorized to operate VFR.
A 'decently' equipped IFR single engine aircraft would have 1 ADF, 2 VOR's, 1 GS
receiver, MB RX and hopefully a DME. that would get you about very handilly for
CAT I approaches.

Many airports in the world (including the USA) don't have ILS or
VOR approaches.

There is serious talk about decomissioning the ILS and VOR/DME
system in the not too distant future.
There's no sense maintaining all that expensive ground equipment
if GPS is sufficiently reliable.

The NDBs are already being decommissioned in the USA.
Most widebodies (and most recent narrow bodies) have everything above plus dual
or triple INS. These systems is integrated via nav management systems for
guidance. The pilot can select the nav guidance combinations
of choice.

To maintain RNP 10 tracks over the oceans, an INS needs an
update every six hours.
Currently, the only way to do that is with GPS.
Gee, I haven't meantioned GPS. Don't have too. KLM's MD-11's for example are
still GPS free and cert. for at least CAT III.

IF, and only if, there's a CAT III certified ILS at the
destination.
Lots and lots of destinations don't have that now, and there
likely won't be any at all in the future.
ILSs are very expensive to build and maintain.

RNP 5 is required in Europe already; RNP 10 is required in the
Pacific.
I don't know how that's being done on 20 hour over-ocean legs
right now; perhaps they have to detour to get within range of
Alaska or Hawaii to get their six-hour fix.

But it won't be possible at all in the not too distant future.
B-777 was the first airliner built that had GPS designed in from the intitial
design stage ... but can of course navigate on its INS, VOR, DME, ADF systems
quite well including CAT III approach (ILS+INS) if the GPS is Tango-Uniform.
It's generally possible for ATC to handle ONE airplane with
navigational problems - they simply give it more space.

That won't work if EVERYBODY's GPS is inoperative.

The days of Charles Lindbergh being the only person aloft over
the Atlantic are long gone.
 
Frank said:
and a


That seems a non-sequiter. What are you saying?

BTW, I'm not taking the opposite side of the discussion from you, just
adding my 1.5 ¢ worth on the discussion about navigating without GPS.

I too am angry about what is happening in the U.S. these days. Eugene
McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover would be proud.

Frank

At 400,000 per month.... that's a lot of sextants and reliable chronometers
as alternatives that aren't being manufactured. ;-)

Regards Frank,
-Sam
 
Mark said:
Tomorrow I could do it in 5 hours using only a stick.

I just hate it when it's cloudy and I'm trying to orient myself with
the Sun, Moon or stars.... will on clowdy night, light pollution from
cities works pretty well.
 
Mark said:
And how can all the primary colours be primary?

Ref: http://www.dictionary.net/color

"Primary colors, those developed from the solar beam by the
prism, viz., red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and
violet, which are reduced by some authors to three, -- red,
green, and violet-blue. These three are sometimes called
fundamental colors."
 
Than a two dollar watch and a sextant made from some ply and two nails ?

You /do/ realise that Cook navigated round the world with less accurate
chronometers than you can get free with a fashion mag these days.
I prefer to survive my voyages.

Captain Cook did not.
 
While a few people here have dreampt up a few simple scenarios for
terrorist attacks that rely to some degree on GPS, you can be sure
that there are a variety of governmental, military and consultant
think tanks that are dreaming up a much longer detailed list of ever
diminishing plausibility scenarios. For each risk there is
corresponding list of deterents and actions. A number of them will
look at infrastructure as both risk and solution in defeating and/or
mitigating an attack.

I agree with that. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that
the Pentagon has contingency plans for invading Canada. Just because
there is a contingency plan it doesn't necessarily follow that the plan
is likely to be implemented. That's why I've dropped out of the threads
- the S/N ratio has become too high.
 
At 400,000 per month.... that's a lot of sextants and reliable chronometers
as alternatives that aren't being manufactured. ;-)

Regards Frank,
-Sam
Ahh, thank you. :-)

Frank
 
Mark said:
And if lightening fries your GPS, or rain gets into it, or the dog eats it,
you're out of luck too...

And if an elk tramples your compass, you're out of luck as well.

FWIW, my GPS is rainproof, and it would be hard for lightning to fry it
without frying me as well. Few dogs would be able to chew and swallow
it without injury.
 
Mark said:
Than a two dollar watch and a sextant made from some ply and two nails ?

It depends on how accurate you need to be.
You /do/ realise that Cook navigated round the world with less accurate
chronometers than you can get free with a fashion mag these days.

He didn't need to be correct within ten metres.
 

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