Clarification about the term "GPS Shutdown"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam Wormley
  • Start date Start date
Ship owners want to know and will pay for that attribute. The US
Government wants to know and has mandated it. GPS is integrated into a
ship's AIS system which is an International Maritime Organization
requirement as part of the ISPS code that affects worldwide shipping and
port security. The timeline for full implementation extends out into
2006 and the confusion on who, what, when, and where have caused all
kinds of issues in the marine and recreational boating industry. The
USCG has its own timeline and after 31 Dec 04 all commercial vessels
over 65 feet, ships registered for over 150 passengers, and tow vessels
over 26 feet and 600 hp used domestically and entering from foreign
waters will need it. There are tonnage limitations too complicated...and
boring to detail here. Ships without AIS or from undesirable countries
will find entry into US ports challenging at best. I am not familiar
with how foreign ports will handle their security issues and therefore
can not comment.

The systems broadcast information via satellite regarding: position,
speed, heading, rate of turn, freight type, crew nationality, state
flag, owner, charterer, ports of last call, security alerts and a slew
of other information such as wave height, which is sent to security
organizations as part of port security operations and commercial
concerns who want to buy the services of the company owning the
communications network.

Aside from the security advantages, the systems can integrate close
proximity maneuvering and navigation safety enhancements. Pretty cool
applications are in the works too that will provide a real-time
"highway" view of surrounding areas in instances of low
visability...such as individual identification of nav aids and smart
identification of other ships nearby along with their course,
convergence paths, rate of turn...yada yada. Of course, some of this is
already available on highend radar, but not integrated into a single system.

The AIS system within the ship is required to be located in a secure and
hidden area to prevent tampering by individuals on-board. The location
and security of the security system must be included in the ship's
security plan and approved as part of ISPS code. Activation of the
silent alert codes can be initiated from the bridge and other places
within the ship. Think of it as a "black box" transponder for marine
assets. I suppose some "Mission Imposslible" plot could override/fake
out the system, but I leave that to others to contemplate if they have
the spare time.

Check out PurpleFinder for more information.

T
 
tallen said:
The AIS system within the ship is required to be located in a secure
and hidden area to prevent tampering by individuals on-board.
Click to expand...

ROTFL - let me guess, the "Department of Homeland Security" came up
with that one :-)

It will be a cold day in hell when the crew of a ship (and especially
the chief enggineer) can be stopped from tampering with something by
placing it "in a secure and hidden area". It's their job to know
every square inch of their vessel - if they want to find something,
they will find it.


Juergen Nieveler
 
tallen said:
What interested me was a comment by Alan Browne...

"When near coasts, they can fix their position very handilly with shore
beacons. When in mid-ocean a simple estimate based on heading, speed
and time can be made or a sextant can be used. There is no need to be
as accurate as GPS for what you describe above."

It truly must be a sunny, clear, and calm day for this vision. An
idealistic view of life if ever there was one. Let's add rain, snow,
the dank darkness of the 3:00 AM watch, background lighting (if near the
coast), and for fun, throw in a little tidal current and fifteen foot
waves into the equation. To further add to the equation, add traffic
separation zones, other vessels turning 20 knots and the occasional
recreational sailboat or small power boat with piss ant navigational
lights and little or no radar profile on your bow.
Click to expand...


Sigh. The whole context of this fantasy thread is an emergency where the GPS
signal is not available. If that happens, you can be sure that shipping will
not grind to a halt. It may have to slow down. There may be delays. But it
will not stop.

Shore beacons (radios), 2 or 3 bearings and your position is fixed. Thanks for
bringing up radar. Recent short range radars give fabulous noise supression and
hence very accurate position determination. Yes, you actually have to think to
do a beacon or radar position fix.

The rest of your post I'll ignore. I've navigated significant portions of the
Canadian north in small aircraft with little other than a free gyro and magnetic
compass, a map and a watch... often in visibility of 1 mile or less at
altitudes of less than 700 feet. Often in severe turbulence. Often in cases
where if you got lost, that was it... getting lost means no fuel, and very
likely an accident on landing. Seriously screwed and wondering if you really
could survive for 3 days or so on the 'sparsely settled regions' emergency pack.

It was always nice to finally tune in a commercial AM station on the ADF as the
aviation and marine NDB's are just too low powered.

People have been navigating ships without GPS and fairly high accuracy for the
last century and more. Aviation has a shorter history, but much the same. The
advent of GPS has not erased other techniques.
 
Mxsmanic said:
Alan Browne writes:




Yes, but with GPS, the ship's owner will know about it, so they may be
more reluctant, or more careful.
Click to expand...

Again, you're out of the context of the thread. An emergency loss of GPS
signals lasting about 24-72 hours.
There is no other way to do this without GPS. There are other, similar
applications as well; it isn't useful just for ships.
Click to expand...

Again, you're....
 
Juergen,
I think it was IMO through the ISPS code that implemented it. But you
are absolutely right regarding knowledge of the location onboard. The
Engineer would certainly know it's location but in theory the majority
of the crew would not know this. Heh heh.

According to the code the ship's security officer develops a plan
detailling safeguards and intrusion response systems and procedures.
Now the hook...last July there was a big tadoo in the maritime pubs
about how that plan was approved. Apparently five copies are required
to be submitted/ distributed to various agencies for review and
approval. I didn't get to see the resolution but it was the impression
from ship's owners that this was like publishing the security plan on
the internet.

I guess the thought regarding security of the device is similar to the
"black box" on a plane. I haven't heard of any highjinks with those.
But then again I don't keep up with aviation stuff. Hey, maybe it will
work.

T
 
Juergen said:
Name one.
Click to expand...

You first.
Just because you don't know how to navigate with a map and compass
doesn't mean that navigation is impossible without GPS.
Click to expand...

Some types of navigation are impossible without GPS. You may prefer to
remain in the 19th century, but I do not.
 
Alan said:
People have been navigating ships without GPS and fairly high accuracy for the
last century and more.
Click to expand...

Well, you're half right: Ships have been navigating without GPS for many
years.
 
Juergen said:
Just HOW will the ship owner know anything? GPS is strictly one-way,
you can't check the position of a ship without having somebody on the
ship cooperating with you.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed the mention of satellite communications. You can
build a GPS receiver into other equipment that locates the ship and
reports its position to a distant receiving station.
 
Juergen said:
ROTFL - let me guess, the "Department of Homeland Security" came up
with that one :-)
Click to expand...

That agency would not have the expertise necessary to develop such a
system.
It will be a cold day in hell when the crew of a ship (and especially
the chief enggineer) can be stopped from tampering with something by
placing it "in a secure and hidden area".
Click to expand...

Rest assured, it can be done. You cannot build a system that the crew
cannot disable, but you can build a system that cannot be tampered with
without you knowing about it.
It's their job to know
every square inch of their vessel - if they want to find something,
they will find it.
Click to expand...

Finding it doesn't help much if you cannot tamper with it.
 
What is "fairly high accuracy"? There are one whole lot of ships on the
bottom of the sea to prove that their navigational accuracy was not
quite good enough. Oh ya, this is a fantasy thread. Apparently loss of
life and assets are OK.

Darn, I said I was signing off but just couldn't let this one go by.
Keep at 'em Mxsmanic. Sooner or later real facts not trash generalities
will prevail.

T
 
Mxsmanic said:
You first.
Click to expand...

You're the one making big claims. Own up or shut up.
Some types of navigation are impossible without GPS. You may prefer to
remain in the 19th century, but I do not.
Click to expand...

Which types? Navigation means "Getting from Point A to Point C via
Point B" - that was possible in the 19th century without GPS, and it is
still possible today, without GPS. Maps don't loose their value, so the
risk of ships hitting reefs is much lower today. And even if you have
half-inch accuracy on your GPS, I have yet to see a single pilot who is
going to entrust his life (let alone that of his passengers) to the
autopilot for landing.

A lot of people keep pointing out to you that for pilots and captains
navigation isn't a mystery, it's THEIR JOB to know where they are. And
they MUST be able to perform that job regardless of systems being down,
batteries being drained or whatever.


Juergen Nieveler
 
tallen said:
What is "fairly high accuracy"? There are one whole lot of ships on
the bottom of the sea to prove that their navigational accuracy was
not quite good enough.
Click to expand...

Ships will go down when they hit rocks that aren't on the map... but
GPS makes sure that you'll know exactly where the wreck is ;-)

Juergen Nieveler
 
Mxsmanic said:
Yes, and that's way too long for a ship.
Click to expand...

Uh... WHY? Ships can simply stop where they are, they don't sink if
they slow down you know :-)

Juergen Nieveler
 
Juergen said:
You're the one making big claims.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not. The original claim was that shutting down GPS would
somehow help to fight terrorists. But that claim has yet to be
substantiated; nobody has provided a clear explanation of exactly how a
GPS shutdown would stop terrorists, or even get in their way. At the
same time, the _disadvantages_ of a GPS shutdown to the rest of the
population are very obvious. So the burden of proof is upon those who
would shut it down to "protect" the USA.
Which types?
Click to expand...

The types that require precision, meaning knowing where one is within
less than a few kilometres.
And even if you have
half-inch accuracy on your GPS, I have yet to see a single pilot who is
going to entrust his life (let alone that of his passengers) to the
autopilot for landing.
Click to expand...

It happens all the time.
A lot of people keep pointing out to you that for pilots and captains
navigation isn't a mystery, it's THEIR JOB to know where they are. And
they MUST be able to perform that job regardless of systems being down,
batteries being drained or whatever.
Click to expand...

A lot of them forget how to do it, or fail to do it properly in an
emergency--which has been the cause of many accidents.
 
Juergen said:
Uh... WHY? Ships can simply stop where they are, they don't sink if
they slow down you know :-)
Click to expand...

Sinking is not the risk. The risk is in ships going where they don't
belong.
 
No, I'm not. The original claim was that shutting down GPS would
somehow help to fight terrorists. But that claim has yet to be
substantiated; nobody has provided a clear explanation of exactly how a
GPS shutdown would stop terrorists, or even get in their way. At the
same time, the _disadvantages_ of a GPS shutdown to the rest of the
population are very obvious. So the burden of proof is upon those who
would shut it down to "protect" the USA.
Click to expand...

So by your logic, the DoD should post to this newsgroup any and all means
that GPS could be used against the US and allies. Let the "cat out of the
bag", eh? Think Osama's minnions are too stupid to read this newsgroup?

You have convinced me you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground.
You have not provided one single fact. Just a lot of blathering. Me thinks
you are a Troll First Class.

You are making an arse of yourself mate. Quit while you can dipstick.
 
Nomen said:
So by your logic, the DoD should post to this newsgroup any and all means
that GPS could be used against the US and allies. Let the "cat out of the
bag", eh? Think Osama's minnions are too stupid to read this newsgroup?
Click to expand...

No, by my logic the powers that be should provide a justification for
destroyed part of the nation's critical infrastructure. Something much
more substantial than the "War on Terror" (tm) in vague,
sensationalistic terms.

The reason nobody provides such a justification is that no such
justification exists. There's nothing top secret about the ways in
which GPS can be used.
 
Mxsmanic said:
No, I'm not. The original claim was that shutting down GPS would
somehow help to fight terrorists.
Click to expand...

The original information was that the White House reserves itself the
right to shut down GPS in emergency situations. You then claimed that
this would cause more damage than a terrorist attack.
The types that require precision, meaning knowing where one is within
less than a few kilometres.
Click to expand...

And it has been shown that those who need that precision (aircraft and
cars) can achieve it without GPS easily, and that it's not all that
important for ships.
It happens all the time.
Click to expand...

Using autopilot for landing? Pilots still prefer to land manually,
AFAIK - if only to proof themselves that their job can't be downsized
to be replaced by a bit of silicon.
A lot of them forget how to do it, or fail to do it properly in an
emergency--which has been the cause of many accidents.
Click to expand...

So what you mean is we can't shut down GPS because people don't know
how to do their job? They'd better start practising, then...


Juergen Nieveler
 

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