Clarification about the term "GPS Shutdown"

[Juergen Nieveler]

Wet trees should not be too much of a problem. And neither a map nor a
compass will tell you where you are.

Indeed, a brain is needed as well. Which shows us the root of your
navigation problem...


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Dave Baker]

A ship will still report its position after being stolen by pirates?
Only if the pirates are extremly stupid...

Not necessarily stupid - tracking units are VERY small these days meaning
they can be hidden, and often have backup battery power so even cutting every
wire you can find on the boat won't stop the units working.

Take a look at a Skywave Inmarsat D+ tracking unit which is about the size of
a sandwich - plenty of places to hide that on a 200m ship!

Or the Satamatics units which have a separate (small) receiver along with an
antenna that is about 1" high & 4" in diameter.

Or go to Spot or Orbcomm trackers - even smaller.

The new IMO ruling REQUIRES all boats in certain categories to have a
tracking unit specifically designed to operate after a piracy attack.

I remember a case not too long ago where a ship was stolen in South East
Asia, and the owner managed to track it to China - they flew up there to find
the vessel had been repainted a different colour, had a new name & all the
cargo stolen. From what I hear they are still in court trying to get it back.

I also personally know of another vessel which was hijacked & had it's entire
cargo of fuel oil pumped into another boat - all while the vessel was being
tracked! Unfortunately at that time the tracking system didn't have "no-stop
zones" configured and nobody watching knew that the ship wasn't supposed to
stop where it did for 16 hours. Since rectified.

Dave

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[JGS]

Not necessarily stupid - tracking units are VERY small these days meaning
they can be hidden, and often have backup battery power so even cutting every
wire you can find on the boat won't stop the units working.

Take a look at a Skywave Inmarsat D+ tracking unit which is about the size of
a sandwich - plenty of places to hide that on a 200m ship!

Or the Satamatics units which have a separate (small) receiver along with an
antenna that is about 1" high & 4" in diameter.

Or go to Spot or Orbcomm trackers - even smaller.

The new IMO ruling REQUIRES all boats in certain categories to have a
tracking unit specifically designed to operate after a piracy attack.

I remember a case not too long ago where a ship was stolen in South East
Asia, and the owner managed to track it to China - they flew up there to find
the vessel had been repainted a different colour, had a new name & all the
cargo stolen. From what I hear they are still in court trying to get it back.

I also personally know of another vessel which was hijacked & had it's entire
cargo of fuel oil pumped into another boat - all while the vessel was being
tracked! Unfortunately at that time the tracking system didn't have "no-stop
zones" configured and nobody watching knew that the ship wasn't supposed to
stop where it did for 16 hours. Since rectified.

Dave

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Interesting information Dave. Thanks for sharing it. I have a hard time
understanding how piracy of commercial shipping still goes on in today's
world, but it obviously does. As I sometimes go on extended cruises, the
thought of personal vessel piracy concerns me a bit.

The South East Asia to China piracy act is amazing. Leave it to the courts
to muck things up.

The units you mention are extremely small. The only question I have is how
they would be activated in the event of a piracy attack. That may not be a
reasonable question to ask in a public forum though. I really don't expect
an answer. Some things are maybe better left undisclosed.

Thanks again for sharing the info.

Regards
JGS

 

[Peter]

The units you mention are extremely small. The only question I have is how
they would be activated in the event of a piracy attack. That may not be a
reasonable question to ask in a public forum though.

Why would they need to be activated rather than just being on
continuously and periodically sending back position information?
They could be wired to ship's power normally but have battery
backup. If the tracking center has the planned route and
itinerary an alarm could be automatically generated when a
discrepancy is noticed - similar to the way GPS is used to
track people with court-ordered limited mobility.

 

[Dave Baker]

Interesting information Dave. Thanks for sharing it. I have a hard time
understanding how piracy of commercial shipping still goes on in today's
world, but it obviously does.

Sure does - for those that are interested, the website below does a weekly
report - a bit quiet this week with only 2 incidents.

http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php

The units you mention are extremely small. The only question I have is how
they would be activated in the event of a piracy attack. That may not be a
reasonable question to ask in a public forum though. I really don't expect
an answer. Some things are maybe better left undisclosed.

I don't think it's any real secret - the info is on public websites already.
Typically (unless you have really cheap boat owners that only want to pay for
actual alert transmissions) the unit is always operational, sending out
position reports at regular intervals. This can be used to detect stopping in
the wrong place or going off course, etc.

Then there are 2 alert buttons hidden on the ship to be pressed in times of
attack.

The units are pretty handy for normal boats as well - my father fishes in the
Southern Ocean so I've fitted a system for him that keeps my mother happy
that he isn't down the pub when he should be fishing!
Actually it's there for if the boat engine or he should have problems & he
can't get back to shore - we know exactly where the boat is & can send
someone out there. He has an epirb as well, but activating that can get
expensive!

Dave

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[JGS]

Sure does - for those that are interested, the website below does a weekly
report - a bit quiet this week with only 2 incidents.

http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracyreport.php

The link was quite interesting and I have bookmarked it. I have one other
question to bother you with. I had a look at the piracy maps for 2003. There
are a number of countries shown on the different maps. There are a number of
Blue highlights with numbers contained within them. I assume those were the
number of reported incidents in those areas?

If so, it sure looks like Malaysia/Indonesia area of the Indian Ocean is a
pretty tough place to be. 121 attacks? Wow. That is one every 3 days in just
that area alone.

Thanks again for the enlightenment.

Regards
JGS

 

[Mxsmanic]

A ship will still report its position after being stolen by pirates?
Yes.

Only if the pirates are extremly stupid...

You can design systems to protect against smart pirates, too.

 

[Mxsmanic]

I have a hard time
understanding how piracy of commercial shipping still goes on in today's
world, but it obviously does.

What's to stop it? The ocean is still a big place, today just as it was
centuries ago. There aren't too many cops around to protect a ship.

The units you mention are extremely small. The only question I have is how
they would be activated in the event of a piracy attack.

They are operating all the time.

 

[Dave Baker]

The link was quite interesting and I have bookmarked it. I have one other
question to bother you with. I had a look at the piracy maps for 2003. There
are a number of countries shown on the different maps. There are a number of
Blue highlights with numbers contained within them. I assume those were the
number of reported incidents in those areas?

Yes, that's correct.

If so, it sure looks like Malaysia/Indonesia area of the Indian Ocean is a
pretty tough place to be. 121 attacks? Wow. That is one every 3 days in just
that area alone.

....which is why our Control Center is in Malaysia and maybe half our
customers are working around Indonesia!

Yeah, it is a big amount, but there are a lot of small islands for the
pirates to operate from, so they are hard to catch. Not to mention that the
Indonesian military is hard-pressed for funds & in fact has to be
entrepreneurial to make money to run itself.

It's amazing how many reports say that the attackers were in "grey boats with
machine guns on the front"... :-(

Piracy is only part of the reason why these boats have tracking - I know of
company that was losing US$2 million worth of diesel every month as it's
supply boats & crew boats were selling it to the local fishermen. That sort
of problem is harder to deal with than piracy actually.

Dave

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[Juergen Nieveler]

Yes.

Unless the pirates disable the system

You can design systems to protect against smart pirates, too.

No. No system, however advanced, can be protected completely against
human intervention - especially not if it requires communication with
satellites. The Pirates will have ways to persuade the crew to disclose
the whereabouts of such a system, or will simply tear down all antennas
topside.

Unless the tracking device contains a totally independent system that
transmits a warning signal from a sonar system hidden in the keel, the
chances of stopping the pirates from disabling it are pretty slim.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Not necessarily stupid - tracking units are VERY small these days
meaning they can be hidden, and often have backup battery power so
even cutting every wire you can find on the boat won't stop the units
working.

But they all have one thing in common: They require antennas...

Take a look at a Skywave Inmarsat D+ tracking unit which is about the
size of a sandwich - plenty of places to hide that on a 200m ship!

No doubt you can hide the main component from people who don't belong
on the ship - however, Pirates could (and probably WOULD) use the old-
fashioned rubber-hose attack to find it....

Or the Satamatics units which have a separate (small) receiver along
with an antenna that is about 1" high & 4" in diameter.

With the antenna sitting on top of the ship, in a prominet spot - for
example on the deckhouse....

The new IMO ruling REQUIRES all boats in certain categories to have a
tracking unit specifically designed to operate after a piracy attack.

But as was discussed before, the ships crew will know where the systems
are - and given a choice between torture and disabling the system,
guess what they'd choose...

I remember a case not too long ago where a ship was stolen in South
East Asia, and the owner managed to track it to China - they flew up
there to find the vessel had been repainted a different colour, had a
new name & all the cargo stolen. From what I hear they are still in
court trying to get it back.

Soon we'll hear stories about ships with welding marks all along the
middle... ;-)

I also personally know of another vessel which was hijacked & had it's
entire cargo of fuel oil pumped into another boat - all while the
vessel was being tracked! Unfortunately at that time the tracking
system didn't have "no-stop zones" configured and nobody watching knew
that the ship wasn't supposed to stop where it did for 16 hours. Since
rectified.

Pumping isn't impossible when the ship is moving... the Pirates will
adjust. The only real way to stop pirates is to send old merchant
vessels into the pirate-infested areas, with a platoon of Marines below
deck.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[jon]

pirates?

Unless the pirates disable the system

if (sufficient_loss_of_signal)
go_into_another_mode();

No. No system, however advanced, can be protected completely against
human intervention - especially not if it requires communication with

satellites. The Pirates will have ways to persuade the crew to disclose
the whereabouts of such a system, or will simply tear down all antennas
topside.

Unless the tracking device contains a totally independent system that

transmits a warning signal from a sonar system hidden in the keel, the
chances of stopping the pirates from disabling it are pretty slim.

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but that never stopped me before
(why should Mx be the only one who *thinks* it has all the answers,
right?) :


Isn't the problem simpler than worrying about whether it'll be disabled
or not and trying to prevent human nature from running its course?
Rather, accept it as a possibility, expect it can be, and plan for it
in the design...


.....The switch is normally closed

If it's designed to transmit a position update periodically, the other
end point should expect to receive a position update periodically.
Assuming the pirates didn't go "let's spoof it first for a few minutes
before disabling", the receive end can determine a resuce (or perhaps
target) circle of some radius based on the last known position report.

Juergen Nieveler

Tschuus,
Job

 

[Mxsmanic]

But they all have one thing in common: They require antennas...

An antenna the size of a teacup. Pretty hard to spot on a 300-metre
tanker.

No doubt you can hide the main component from people who don't belong
on the ship - however, Pirates could (and probably WOULD) use the old-
fashioned rubber-hose attack to find it....

How many cases of this were you able to uncover in your research?

With the antenna sitting on top of the ship, in a prominet spot - for
example on the deckhouse....

Prominent to whom?

But as was discussed before, the ships crew will know where the systems
are - and given a choice between torture and disabling the system,
guess what they'd choose...

What is your basis for this scenario?

 

[Mxsmanic]

Unless the pirates disable the system

Some systems are difficult to disable.

No. No system, however advanced, can be protected completely against
human intervention - especially not if it requires communication with
satellites. The Pirates will have ways to persuade the crew to disclose
the whereabouts of such a system, or will simply tear down all antennas
topside.

The pirates are no smarter than anyone else. A system that resists
compromise by most people will also resist compromise by most pirates.

As a general rule, dishonest people are somewhat less intelligent than
honest people, anyway, which doesn't help the pirates.

Unless the tracking device contains a totally independent system that
transmits a warning signal from a sonar system hidden in the keel, the
chances of stopping the pirates from disabling it are pretty slim.

What is your basis for this scenario?

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

An antenna the size of a teacup. Pretty hard to spot on a 300-metre
tanker.

Not THAT hard, given that the choice of spots will be rather limited.
You can hide it on the deck of a freighter, but you'll find the
available spots on a container ship are somewhat more limited.

Prominent to whom?

To everybody who knows that the antenna would have to have clear view
of the sky. Lots of space available on a tanker, much less space
available on a container carrier. And the crew will know where it is -
as it's one of the few spots where they MUST NOT paint. The crew can be
forced to reveal such locations.

What is your basis for this scenario?

Logical thinking. Sorry, I forgot that you don't understand that.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Unless the pirates disable the system

if (sufficient_loss_of_signal)
go_into_another_mode(); [SNIP]
If it's designed to transmit a position update periodically, the other
end point should expect to receive a position update periodically.
Assuming the pirates didn't go "let's spoof it first for a few minutes
before disabling", the receive end can determine a resuce (or perhaps
target) circle of some radius based on the last known position report.

Of course, you'd know where the ship was captured, and in what
direction it was heading at that time. But what good would this do,
unless you have patrol aircraft or destroyers nearby to go looking
immediately?

Every hour that the pirates get away from the point of capture without
being traced means a larger area has to be searched - within a few
hours it becomes impossible to find the ship again, especially if the
pirates also brought a few buckets of paint along.

To really deter pirates you'd need to set up a lot of patrols in pirate-
infested waters, or attack their hideouts.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Some systems are difficult to disable.

Difficult, but not impossible - which is my point.

As a general rule, dishonest people are somewhat less intelligent than
honest people, anyway, which doesn't help the pirates.

ROTLMAO. As a rule, smart dishonest people don't get caught and thus
appear to be honest people.

What is your basis for this scenario?

The keel is the part of the ship that is hardest to reach unless in
drydock. But a satellite antenna would be rather useless mounted under
the keel - which means that you'd have to use sonar, which could send
out an emergency signal that gets picked up by SOSUS. Everything
topsides is reachable for the pirates, and you have to assume the worst
case, that either the crew cooperates with the pirates or is forced to
reveal the location of a transmitter.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[jon]

Presumably, you'd know enough to already narrow down the areas to be
'near enough' to.... .e.g. you know enought to patrol neighborhoods
where the candy stores are repeatedly getting popped? They may get
away with it at ifrst for a few times, but sooner or later the radius
decreases.

Then, of course, there are other 'surveillance' techniques/aids
available other than the relatively slow method of 'waiting for the
cavalry to arrive' which allows for tracing after the point of
capture. I had assumed that that goes (went?) without saying.
Regards,
Jon

 

[Frank Looper]

To really deter pirates you'd need to set up a lot of patrols in pirate-

infested waters, or attack their hideouts.

Maybe we should just put Tom Clancy onto it...

 

[Dave Baker]

But they all have one thing in common: They require antennas...

As I said - very small antennas - proverbial needle-in-a-haystack. I install
these units for a living, and have yet to have 1 sabotaged, although 2 of our
vessels have been attacked by pirates, and we have hundreds of vessels with
the units.

No doubt you can hide the main component from people who don't belong
on the ship - however, Pirates could (and probably WOULD) use the old-
fashioned rubber-hose attack to find it....

No use to them - the crew don't know where the antenna is in most cases if
the client insists. In that case the client sends all the crew off before we
install the system - the crew only knows where the buttons are. I won't go
into details on how the system is protected even though the button location
may be found.

With the antenna sitting on top of the ship, in a prominet spot - for
example on the deckhouse....

Certainly not prominent, and not easily found at all.

But as was discussed before, the ships crew will know where the systems
are

Not discussed by me - they (usually - depends on the client) DON'T know where
the system is.

- and given a choice between torture and disabling the system,
guess what they'd choose...

Interesting scenario, but 2 problems with it:

a) "disabling" the system triggers it into operation.

b) destroying the system lets us know that something is wrong as we don't get
transmissions.

Pumping isn't impossible when the ship is moving...

True - my previous posting mentioned that fuel theft is a bigger problem than
piracy. In that case once we caught boats stopping where they shouldn't, they
DID start transferring fuel while on the move. Then things started to get
messy with fuel flow meters & the like. Eventually the captains got the
message that we were out to get them, and sacking of a few ringleaders
brought the problem under control.

The only real way to stop pirates is to send old merchant
vessels into the pirate-infested areas, with a platoon of Marines below
deck.

Therein lies the problem - the countries we deal with are not interested in
having the USA stomp around in their back yard - the USA has offered a couple
of times & been told to butt out.

Dave

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