Clarification about the term "GPS Shutdown"

Discussion in 'General GPS Discussion' started by Sam Wormley, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. well ironically most GPSs will tell you where you are with precision, but
    can't tell you which way you are facing - but a compass can. Looks like a
    more or less tied game...
    We have magnetite ore deposits around here that cause some local eratic
    needle swings. My old uncle used to carry 3 compasses and take the best 2
    out of 3. Before you think that's crazy, let me point out that NASA did
    exactly the same thing with space craft navigation systems!!

    For me, a compass and a paper map as well as a GPS are essential for
    navigation:
    1. A compass is easier to use to maintain headings. I set my GPS datum to
    that of the paper map, set it to use "true north" heeadigs, and dial the
    declination into the compass. Now I can just get a bearing from location to
    target from the GPS and walk it using the compass. If I have to dodge
    around a pond, I can jut get another correected GPS bearing and walk it.

    2. If the GPS batteries die, I have enough information with map and compass
    to get where I want to go just fine.

    If the administration shut down civilian GPS tommorrow I'd be very
    inconvenienced since I use it for rough survey work, but with map and
    compass I'd still get by just fine. I believe that for those interested in
    navigation problems, a good understanding of map and compass is essential
    and very useful in understanding GPS.

    By the way, compass can tell you where you are. How about triangulating on
    two known points on the horizon? "Where you are" is relative. Sometimes
    accuracy of a few feet doesn't matter. In fact, we are assuming here the
    only form of navigation other than GPS is compass. How about LORAN?
    sextant (yup - I have my grandpa's)? Good navigation on both land and water
    has been around for a long time (see the movie "longitude" for an
    interesting sidebar), and GPS is very useful, but very new to the party.
     
    Pieter Litchfield, Dec 18, 2004
  2. Having used map and compasses for about 60 years, I rely on them. GPS is a
    wonderful assistant - but never trust one method of navigation alone.
    Always know where you are on the map so if the fog surprises you in the
    mountains, make sure your GPS does not take you over a cliff! It may
    hurt....
     
    Egil Beichmann, Dec 18, 2004
  3. Sam Wormley

    Tom Guest

    One of the things it can provoke is a crippling halt to GPS, which
    Exactly what infrastructure would sustain crippling damage by a short halt to
    GPS? Maybe......
    Airplanes falling out of the sky because they can't find airports? (GPS is a
    luxury system on aircraft - IRS, INS, ADF, VOR, TACAN (military), LORAN, ILS,
    and GLIDESLOPE are Primary systems, and lets not forget our gyro stabalized
    magnet compass systems for heading information)
    Trains running off thier tracks? Trucks running off the highway? Surveyors
    building a bridge across the wrong river? Ships sailing in the wrong ocean?
    Millions of lost hikers?
    GPS shut down for 24 hours...It's the end of civilization as we know it!!!
     
    Tom, Dec 18, 2004
  4. Sam Wormley

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Not quite. You can stand in one spot with a GPS, then walk ten metres,
    then take another fix, and you'll know exactly which way is north.
    Not by itself.
    If you don't know where you are, you don't know of any other "known
    points," either.
    And notice that compasses alone were never very useful for navigation.
     
    Mxsmanic, Dec 18, 2004
  5. Sam Wormley

    Mxsmanic Guest

    What did you use as backup to your map and compass?
     
    Mxsmanic, Dec 18, 2004
  6. Sam Wormley

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Many forms of transportation.
    Possibly ... or hitting mountains.
    Just because they're older? Which of them is "most primary"?
     
    Mxsmanic, Dec 18, 2004
  7. Which of course shows that outside this group people DO have
    contingency plans in case civilian GPS has to be turned off in a hurry
    :)


    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  8. It's a mystery then how people have managed to navigate with only map
    and compass for ages...
    So you're a 2nd Lieutenant? ;-)

    True, a compass alone won't help - but a compass and a map in the hands
    of somebody who knows how to use them are just as accurate as GPS.
    Using map and compass is slower, but more reliable... a compass doesn't
    need batteries.


    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  9. Yes it is. Commercially available, off-the-shelf. Used in IT
    departments around the world, or for example as emergency power in
    hospitals.
    Maybe not for your home utility service - it's quite a bit different
    for companies.
    Yes, before the project was scrapped he planned to use a cheap GPS
    receiver to guide a large model airplane. Much easier than designing
    inertial guidance.
    That would probably be taken into account before deciding to turn off
    GPS. However, there COULD be a situation when turning off GPS might
    seem the better alternative, and that's all the White House said. Just
    because you can't think of a reason why GPS could be down doesn't mean
    it's not a good idea to prepare for that situation.


    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  10. With a containerized diesel generator running in the backyard to power
    my servers for the duration of the (planned, I admit) power outage,
    like I did a couple of months ago?


    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  11. An option that isn't always available and is also inconvenient - which
    is why some receivers include a small electronic compass.
    Of course. You have to have a map, and have to know how to use it.
    You should always at least know on which map sheet you are, and unless
    you're traveling through a featureless desert you should be able to see
    terrain features that stand out and can be recognized on a map.
    A compass is VERY usefull if you want to find the magnetic pole. Try
    doing that with GPS ;-)

    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  12. Backup for a map is more difficult, but every boyscout learns to find
    North without the aid of a compass - that's REALLY child's play.

    Of course, even with GPS you'll still need a map - the raw coordinates
    aren't really usefull for navigation, unless your GPS has a "Leap over
    mountains and swim through rivers"-feature. GPS saves time because you
    don't have to triangulate your position with a compass anymore, but
    without a map GPS is useless.

    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  13. Not a single one of which would catastrophically fail.
    Because all those other navigation systems suddenly failed as well, and
    ATC couldn't see the plane on their radar, and somehow the pilots
    weren't able to look out of the window anymore? If an aircraft would be
    in such a desperate situation, they'd declare inflight emergency and
    get a military escort - problem solved, the military aircraft would
    still be able to navigate.
    Depends on which part of the flight. For transoceanic flights it would
    be LORAN, for final approach ILS...


    Juergen Nieveler
     
    Juergen Nieveler, Dec 18, 2004
  14. Sam Wormley

    Mxsmanic Guest

    They haven't. Accurate navigational methods are a recent development.
    Only if he already knows where he is.
     
    Mxsmanic, Dec 18, 2004
  15. Sam Wormley

    Agamemnon Guest

     
    Agamemnon, Dec 18, 2004
  16. Sam Wormley

    Mxsmanic Guest

    How is it done?
    If you know where you are, that's half the trip.
    I've regularly used GPS without a map.
     
    Mxsmanic, Dec 18, 2004
  17. Sam Wormley

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Why not?
    It's surprising how failures actually occur in real life. Very often a
    single point of failure leads to disaster, even with lots of backup
    systems.
    Where would the military escort go to find them?
    How can it change?
     
    Mxsmanic, Dec 18, 2004
  18. Sam Wormley

    Iolaos Guest

    Yes.

    It's called Galileo.
     
    Iolaos, Dec 18, 2004
  19. Sam Wormley

    Alan Browne Guest

    It depends on the nature of the target and the nature of the attack. A GPS
    receiver costs a few dollars and weighs a few ounces. An INS is heavier, more
    expensive and more difficult to integrate. If you just want to randomly lob a
    missile into a city, then that doesn't require much precision.
    While this whole thread is a bit (a lot) out of control, we're discussing things
    at the edge of unliklihood... one unlikely, but plausible, is an offshore (or
    from w/i the US) attack using a simple UAV dependant on GPS to hit a power
    station containment dome with, say, 4000 lbs. of Semtex. You can set S/A to a
    high value, but I don't believe it can be skewed to guide something off track.
    So there's still a probability of a hit. You can shut down the C/A code
    completely and deny GPS navigation completely... the UAV runs into a hillside
    and blows up. You restore C/A after 24 hours or so. Very little inconvenience
    to avoid atmospheric dispersal of radioactive dust and gas.

    It would be better, perhaps, to have spoofing and jamming xmtrs installed near
    all facilities like that above, and for all we know that may be in the works,
    and that would be a more controlled and localized means of denying GPS w/o major
    disruptions.

    And how much disruption? I still hold that GPS might cause cellphone networks
    to behave poorly, and some networks to bog down. Power companies might have to
    isolate their grids more resulting in some power outages. Airline, corporate
    and private pilots would just continue to use VOR/DME, NDB, INS, LOC/ILS, etc.
    according to their eqt. list, and hardly think anything of it. Police and fire
    would have to rely on maps and dispatcher aid... but society will not come
    crumbling down. SCATANA has been in existance for decades and what the
    announcement amounts to is a variation on the theme. SCATANA has never been
    fully invoked (it was partially following Sept. 11).

    While a few people here have dreampt up a few simple scenarios for terrorist
    attacks that rely to some degree on GPS, you can be sure that there are a
    variety of governmental, military and consultant think tanks that are dreaming
    up a much longer detailed list of ever diminishing plausibility scenarios. For
    each risk there is corresponding list of deterents and actions. A number of
    them will look at infrastructure as both risk and solution in defeating and/or
    mitigating an attack.

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Dec 18, 2004
  20. Sam Wormley

    Alan Browne Guest

    Not in a number of plausible cases. That is the point.

    Low cost, accurate guidance.
    Guide an unmanned boat into an LNG facility loaded with Semtex.

    Guide an unammed aircraft into a nuke station conatinment dome, loaded with Semtex.

    There are alternatives to shutting off GPS to defeat or mitigate these attacks,
    and in the case of the LNG terminal, they are already heavilly guarded against
    such an attack. But there are hundreds of similar targets.
    I'm not suggesting it. I hate the idea. But the US Gov't has publicly stated
    that it is a possible defence.
    1) Mx, You have not named a single critical thing that is wholly dependant on
    GPS (though asked repeatedly by me and at least one other poster).
    2) I have answered your questions about both the effect of GPS loss in terms of
    degraded service in communications; inconvenience in some areas and absolutely 0
    danger to aviation.

    I don't care if you're persuaded, and from past exchanges with you elsewhere I
    have little hope. The fact is that you know little about the workings of GPS at
    large and you believe far too much in universal dependance on it. It is true
    that it is an enabler in many areas. But those areas can tolerate loss of
    service without serious detriment to society or individual for a brief (and
    mostly a very long) period of time. I doubt that there is anyyhing in existence
    that is so dependant on GPS as to present a hazard or danger the moment GPS
    signal is lost. And if there is it should be immediately decommisioned or
    rectified. You have still not named any such facility, serice, system or
    anything that is so dependant on GPS.
    You've tediously harped on the effect of major GPS loss. I've countered
    reasonably: a) it won't be so bad; b) the duration will be short c) workarounds
    are many.

    Unmanned Boats, UAV's.
    Cheap, easy, accurate. UAV's have been around since WW II, probably before.
    But nothing has enabled their stunning emergence over the past 10 years as much
    as a single resource called GPS which allows low cost, low weight, accurate and
    reliable guidance.

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
    Alan Browne, Dec 18, 2004
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