GPS World: USNO's Fountain: Time at 100 Trillionths of a Second

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam Wormley
  • Start date Start date
On Jan 23, 11:04 pm, Koobee Wublee wrote:

Why even respond with anything other than "NURRRRR HURF DURF" if you
are just going to do that?
Click to expand...

Oh, stop crying. It is your own fault. You never did understand how
the time and space is calculated in a GPS receiver, and there is no
point to continue. <shrug>
 
   The beautiful thing about GPS is that observational data is available
   to all most anyone and be compared to predictions of GTR... GPS isa
   wonderful relativity laboratory.

   Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
     http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5....
     http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png

   Take some time to learn what really happens.
Click to expand...

-------------
relativistic effects on clocks are not of GR
but about SR !!!
just remember

i am not against SR
i am against GR !!!
(a bit of fines Mr Wormley !!!
and above all
the above quotes are a good reminder
that GPS has nothing yo do with GR

it is a pure technical trial and error practice

and the ugly side of it is
getting credit for something that does not belong it
more bluntly:
steeling credit !!
(i know it is not your initiative
you are just t quoting without thinking
and examining properly )

ATB
Y.Porat
-------------------------
 
Tom Roberts said:
Koobee said:
The bottom line is that GPS has no applications of SR or GR anywhere
in the system.
Click to expand...

This is just plain false. Koobee does not know what the GPS actually is.

In particular, the actual GPS has a ground segment with many clocks that
are REQUIRED to remain synchronized with the clocks in the space segment
[#]. In addition, GPS time must remain within 1 microsecond of UTC
modulo leap seconds. Remember that the actual GPS is a military system,
and they require the space segment to continue to meet its requirements
for a month without any ground segment (in military jargon, the
satellites are MUCH more survivable than the ground segment is).

That clearly requires that the time variations predicted and modeled by
GR be incorporated into the system clocks. And, of course, they are.
That simple fact disproves Koobee's claims.

[#] Synchronization is of course in the ECI frame. Note also
that "clock" here means the reading of the clock AFTER the
corrections are applied. The raw reading of the clock is
adjusted for the basic GR effect, but the corrections handle
clock drift and other minor errors. The basic GR effect is about
38 microseconds per day for satellites, far larger than the
corrections. GR is also used to compute some of the corrections
(e.g. time offsets due to the sun and moon; time offsets due
to improper orbit, etc.).
Click to expand...

Considering that over 300 years ago
Galileo EXPERIMENTED and discovered
that acceleration affected the frequency of oscillators,

why not give credit where credit is due,

and call the frequency difference between an Earth bound oscillator,
and an identical orbiting oscillator,

that results in tick accumulators (Clocks)
accumulating tick differences of 38 microseconds per day

the GALILEO EFFECT?

Note that the 38 microseconds per day difference
can be computed using one Galileo based equation,
and one does not have to use General Relativity
plus 13 hacks to get the right value.

Also note that after Galileo's discovery,
England sent ships all over the world
with standard pendulums to collect acceleration data (Little g)

and Newton used this data
to compute the shape of the Earth,
(Including the bumps.)
and tides all over the world.

I, for one, would like to see the
General Relativity Cultists or Gurus,
duplicate what Newton did
( Compute a few tides.)
using Galileo's discovery and hand calculations.

Are General Relativity Cultists or Gurus babble masters,
or can they really use General Relativity alone
without the 13 Classical Physics hacks,
to do cost-efficient useful work?

The greatest con jobs in the world
are diamonds, vitamin C, General Relativity, the Holocaust,
jade, whiplash, carpal tunnel syndrome, and
let me just put it in a little way.

--
Tom Potter
http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm
 
Koobee said:
When conducting an acquisition, if you have three satellites, it is
necessary to synchronize the ground and the satellite clocks.
However, when four satellites are acquired, there is no need to
impose a synchronization of the ground and the satellite clocks as long as
the clocks on all the satellites are synchronized among themselves.
Click to expand...


Satellite clocks run at a different rate that ground observers and
even when synchronized among themselves will give a totally erroneous
PVT solution in a ground receiver without relativity corrections and
time synchronization. The error would eventually become so great that
the receiver would be looking for satellites on the wrong side of the
earth.

Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png
 
Tom said:
Considering that over 300 years ago
Galileo EXPERIMENTED and discovered
that acceleration affected the frequency of oscillators,
Click to expand...

The problem, Potter, is that you perpetually fail to understand
that gravitation as well as relative velocity cause time dilation
and must be taken into account. Every nanosecond counts in global
navigation satellite systems.

Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png
 
Koobee said:
On Jan 23, 10:34 pm, Koobee Wublee wrote:
I guess the manufacturer of GPS receivers disagree with you.
http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/theory.htm
Click to expand...
[whining crap snipped]
Click to expand...

You never did understand how the time and space is calculated in a GPS
receiver, and there is no point to continue. <shrug>
Click to expand...

First and formost, Koobee, one needs to provide accurate timing in
the global navigation satellite system.

Perhaps Koobee would benefit from a bit of self education
http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html#relativity

Interface Control Document ICD-GPS-200D
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

GPS is a Satellite Navigation System
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/navigate.gif

Ephemeris Data Set Used in Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
 
Like Potter, Porat perpetually fail to understand that gravitation as well
as relative velocity cause time dilation and must be taken into account.
Every nanosecond counts in global navigation satellite systems.

Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png
just remember

i am not against SR
i am against GR !!!
(a bit of fines Mr Wormley !!!
and above all
the above quotes are a good reminder
that GPS has nothing yo do with GR
Click to expand...

GTR predicts the error, and thus the corrections, required for accuracy
and functionality in global navigation satellite systems.
it is a pure technical trial and error practice
Click to expand...

Trial and error might have made some progress toward accuracy and
functionality in global navigation satellite systems, however, that
was not the case. Relativistic corrections were and are an integral
part of the GPS.
 
On Jan 24 said:
   Perhaps Dennis (AKA Sue) would benefit from a bit of self education
     http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html#relativity
Click to expand...

Why would I click on a link that has the EDU on
the wrong side of the dot ?

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

Only someone who thinks they need Dirk and Sam
to tell them who they are and who they are not
is going to accept that my clock is slower than
your clock while your clock is slower than my clock.

Just because one psychopath is following another
psychopath is no reason anyone else should follow.

Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience
Rory Coker, Ph.D.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

As for you obsession with Dirk's old flame, I can only
suggest you take it up with a mental health professional.

In any case, this newsgroup is not a gay meeting forum
and I am not *Dennis* so take your crap elsewhere.

Sue !!!
 
Koobee said:
On Jan 23, 3:11 pm, Eric Gisse wrote:

I guess the manufacturer of GPS receivers disagree with you.
Click to expand...

The GPS receivers don't have to have atomic clocks to work, given
a sufficient number of satellites, geometry and so on Koobee. But
the system as a whole must have exquisite timing, orbital accuracy
and a good figure of the earth.

Eric is right on.

Here are some resources for you, Koobee:
http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html
 
Koobee said:
On Jan 23, 10:34 pm, Koobee Wublee wrote:
I guess the manufacturer of GPS receivers disagree with you.
http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/theory.htm
Click to expand...
[whining crap snipped]
Click to expand...

You never did understand how the time and space is calculated in a GPS
receiver, and there is no point to continue. <shrug>
Click to expand...

There is every point to continue, Koobee, because you should
really take some time to understand the principles and
implementation of global navigation satellite systems.


Interface Control Document ICD-GPS-200D
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

GPS is a Satellite Navigation System
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/navigate.gif

Ephemeris Data Set Used in Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
 
   Like Potter, Porat perpetually fail to understand that gravitationas well
   as relative velocity cause time dilation and must be taken into account.
   Every nanosecond counts in global navigation satellite systems.

   Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
     http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5....
     http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png



   GTR predicts the error, and thus the corrections, required for accuracy
   and functionality in global navigation satellite systems.




   Trial and error might have made some progress toward accuracy and
   functionality in global navigation satellite systems, however, that
   was not the case. Relativistic corrections were and are an integral
   part of the GPS.
Click to expand...

common man
do you have difficulty in reading englidh???

my claim is that GR repeat curvature of space time
has nothing to do with the GPS system
space is nothing and therefore cannot have
any properties except hosting mass
if there is no mass in there it does not curve and does not shmerve
the curved movement(of masses!!) is due to some
force agemnts that stem from mass !!!
em waves has mass as well !!!
othoha
he fact that whilwe a mass reaches closer to the c velocity
it becomes more dificult for it to add velocity
so relative to a stationary detector there is a change
measurments ie they do not remain constant
9the relative motion in slow elative movement
is different from that while there is a hihgr movement
of the deteced mass
that is why i agree with SR !!
**but that has nothing to do with GR**
that claimes that space is a sort of force maker
that can curve a movement pass of a mass
waht cuses the curved movement of mass
is
**mass agents that are emmited fromone mass to the other**
as in ***all forces*** that we know
electric magnetic nuclear etc etc

got it once and for all ??
and please dont forget who told you that
for the first time
and write it down in your **new books**
not in your old ones !!
and once upon a time(may be after 50 years ..) while you quote it
dont forget who was the original .thinker ...

ATB
Y.Porat
-----------------------------
 
   Hey, Koobee, let me outline if for you!

   Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
     http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/navigate.gif

   Ephemeris Data Set Used in Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
     http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
Click to expand...

------------------------
common
the 'space segments that are quoted there
*has nothing to do with 'curvature of space time'

it has a lot to do withthe fact that satellites are
orbiting earth
and it has nothing to do with the 'force of space
curvature'
it is the Gravitons that do it!!
it is mass messengers from earth !!
2
it has nothingto do with clocks changing ther rate
*in their rest frame*
it is not in their rest frame
it is the relative movent betwen them
and earth that detects their movement!
or relative movement between themselves
plus earth
you always have the problem of 'downloading' the data to earth by EM
waves
in short

SR indeed has a lot to do with it
GR has nothing to do with it !!!
and the theory as well has nothing to do with
GR
it is only the SR which is againf just in practice
*atrial and error **engineering**system
so
stop stealing credit from engineering sytems
to your GR theory !!
and the sooner realizing it- the better for all of us --
on the long run .

ATB
Y.Porat
-------------------
 
Oh, stop crying.  It is your own fault.  You never did understand how
the time and space is calculated in a GPS receiver, and there is no
point to continue.  <shrug>
Click to expand...

NURRRRR
 
Koobee said:
Hmmm... You are taking a couple poorly written application notes as
the Bible.
Click to expand...

I note with interest that Koobee Wublee doesn't know the difference
between a specification and an application note.

The manufacturers of the GPS-satellites better take
the specification "as the Bible"! :-)

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

I quote section 3.3.1.1 from this SPECIFICATION:
<<
3.3.1.1 Frequency Plan.
The L-band signals shall be contained within two 20.46-MHz bands
centred about L1 and L2. The carrier frequencies for the L1 and L2
signals shall be coherently derived from a common frequency source
within the SV. The nominal frequency of this source -- as it appears
to an observer on the ground -- is 10.23 MHz. The SV carrier frequency
and clock rates -- as they would appear to an observer located in
the SV -- are offset to compensate for relativistic effects. The clock
rates are offset by delta_f/f = -4.4647E-10, equivalent to a change in
the P-code shipping rate of 10.23 MHz offset by a delta_f = -4.5674E-3 Hz.
This is equal to 10.22999999543 MHz. The nominal carrier frequencies (fo)
shall be 1575.42 MHz, and 1227.6 MHz for L1 and L2, respectively.
There is nothing to discuss. It is an indisputable fact that
the -4.4647E-10 correction predicted by GR is built into
each and every GPS-satellite, which proves that the GPS works
with the corrections introduced by GR.
When conducting an acquisition, if you have three satellites, it is
necessary to synchronize the ground and the satellite clocks.
However, when four satellites are acquired, there is no need to impose
a synchronization of the ground and the satellite clocks as long as
the clocks on all the satellites are synchronized among themselves.
Synchronization of the clocks between the ground and the satellite is
much more difficult to achieve than satellite-to-satellite.
Click to expand...

This is incredible stupid!
There are 24 satellites in 6 planes. They are moving fast relative
to each other. And you claim that it is simpler to synchronize
the satellites between themselves than to do it form the ground!
It would be virtually impossible!
And it isn't done.
Each SV clock is synchronized to the ground clocks from the ground.
That so-called professor from Norway somewhere realized that. To
continue to spread the nonsense of GR, he immediately pounded his feet
to claim the synchronization must be achieved through the operating
frequencies of the satellites and ground equipments. Well, given 500
parts in a trillion, just how accurate do you want these frequency
errors to be? Remember we are talking about a broadband application
with very low actual data bit rate.
Click to expand...

It isn't very smart to lie like this when what I actually said can
be found on Google:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/864da1c5af07fc14
http://tinyurl.com/bdzm4k
<<
It is completely beside the point to repeat over and over
that the small offset in the frequencies sent from
the satellite have no consequences whatsover,
because nobody ever said they had.

Listen autistic idiot:
The reason, and only reason, why the frequency standard is corrected
for relativistic effects is to make the SV clock run synchronously with
the ground clocks.

That the carrier and shipping frequencies also are adjusted is
just a side effect because all frequencies are derived from
the same frequency standard.

Read this:

| -----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The important point is that if the SV clock rates were not corrected,
| they would drift out of sync from GPS time after few minutes.
| The clocks have to be in sync within 100 ns for the GPS to work.
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------

All this stupid fuss about the frequencies emitted from
the satellite is copletely beside the point!

The carrier frequencies, like all other frequencies,
are at the receiver Doppler shifted between +/- 3E-7.
The satellites are moving!
This is equivalent to a frequency shift of the carriers
in the order of kHz. Since the banwidth of the channels
is ca. 20 MHz, this is of no consequence for the receiver.

The Doppler shift may be almost a thousand times more than
the minute GR-correction, so of bloody course the -4.4647E-10
offset is of no concequence whatsoever for the receiver!
AND NOBODY EVER SAID OTHERWISE!
Defending a passage from an application note that you know nothing
about is very hilarious indeed, Sam! This is another example of why
the engineers in general are more intelligent than physicists.
<shrug>
Click to expand...

A strange statement.
The engineers building the GPS-satellites are obviously smart
enough to build them according to the specification.
So what exactly are you referring to?
 
   The problem, Potter, is that you perpetually fail to understand
   that gravitation as well as relative velocity cause time dilation
   and must be taken into account.
Click to expand...

UNPROVEN (and illogical)
 

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