GPS World: USNO's Fountain: Time at 100 Trillionths of a Second

Discussion in 'General GPS Discussion' started by Sam Wormley, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. Oh, stop crying. It is your own fault. You never did understand how
    the time and space is calculated in a GPS receiver, and there is no
    point to continue. <shrug>
     
    Koobee Wublee, Jan 24, 2009
    #21
  2. Sam Wormley

    Y.Porat Guest

    -------------
    relativistic effects on clocks are not of GR
    but about SR !!!
    just remember

    i am not against SR
    i am against GR !!!
    (a bit of fines Mr Wormley !!!
    and above all
    the above quotes are a good reminder
    that GPS has nothing yo do with GR

    it is a pure technical trial and error practice

    and the ugly side of it is
    getting credit for something that does not belong it
    more bluntly:
    steeling credit !!
    (i know it is not your initiative
    you are just t quoting without thinking
    and examining properly )

    ATB
    Y.Porat
    -------------------------
     
    Y.Porat, Jan 24, 2009
    #22
  3. Sam Wormley

    Tom Potter Guest

    Considering that over 300 years ago
    Galileo EXPERIMENTED and discovered
    that acceleration affected the frequency of oscillators,

    why not give credit where credit is due,

    and call the frequency difference between an Earth bound oscillator,
    and an identical orbiting oscillator,

    that results in tick accumulators (Clocks)
    accumulating tick differences of 38 microseconds per day

    the GALILEO EFFECT?

    Note that the 38 microseconds per day difference
    can be computed using one Galileo based equation,
    and one does not have to use General Relativity
    plus 13 hacks to get the right value.

    Also note that after Galileo's discovery,
    England sent ships all over the world
    with standard pendulums to collect acceleration data (Little g)

    and Newton used this data
    to compute the shape of the Earth,
    (Including the bumps.)
    and tides all over the world.

    I, for one, would like to see the
    General Relativity Cultists or Gurus,
    duplicate what Newton did
    ( Compute a few tides.)
    using Galileo's discovery and hand calculations.

    Are General Relativity Cultists or Gurus babble masters,
    or can they really use General Relativity alone
    without the 13 Classical Physics hacks,
    to do cost-efficient useful work?

    The greatest con jobs in the world
    are diamonds, vitamin C, General Relativity, the Holocaust,
    jade, whiplash, carpal tunnel syndrome, and
    let me just put it in a little way.

    --
    Tom Potter
    http://tdp1001.spaces.live.com/
    http://www.tompotter.us/misc.html
    http://www.geocities.com/tdp1001/index.html
    http://notsocrazyideas.blogspot.com
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom-potter/
    http://tdp1001.wiki.zoho.com
    http://groups.msn.com/PotterPhotos
    http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dingleberry.htm
     
    Tom Potter, Jan 24, 2009
    #23
  4. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest


    Satellite clocks run at a different rate that ground observers and
    even when synchronized among themselves will give a totally erroneous
    PVT solution in a ground receiver without relativity corrections and
    time synchronization. The error would eventually become so great that
    the receiver would be looking for satellites on the wrong side of the
    earth.

    Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #24
  5. Sam Wormley

    Sue... Guest

    Sue..., Jan 24, 2009
    #25
  6. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    The problem, Potter, is that you perpetually fail to understand
    that gravitation as well as relative velocity cause time dilation
    and must be taken into account. Every nanosecond counts in global
    navigation satellite systems.

    Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #26
  7. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #27
  8. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    First and formost, Koobee, one needs to provide accurate timing in
    the global navigation satellite system.

    Perhaps Koobee would benefit from a bit of self education
    http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html#relativity

    Interface Control Document ICD-GPS-200D
    http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

    GPS is a Satellite Navigation System
    http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

    Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
    http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/navigate.gif

    Ephemeris Data Set Used in Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
    http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #28
  9. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    Like Potter, Porat perpetually fail to understand that gravitation as well
    as relative velocity cause time dilation and must be taken into account.
    Every nanosecond counts in global navigation satellite systems.

    Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.html
    http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png
    GTR predicts the error, and thus the corrections, required for accuracy
    and functionality in global navigation satellite systems.
    Trial and error might have made some progress toward accuracy and
    functionality in global navigation satellite systems, however, that
    was not the case. Relativistic corrections were and are an integral
    part of the GPS.
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #29
  10. Sam Wormley

    Sue... Guest

    Why would I click on a link that has the EDU on
    the wrong side of the dot ?

    http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

    Only someone who thinks they need Dirk and Sam
    to tell them who they are and who they are not
    is going to accept that my clock is slower than
    your clock while your clock is slower than my clock.

    Just because one psychopath is following another
    psychopath is no reason anyone else should follow.

    Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience
    Rory Coker, Ph.D.
    http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

    As for you obsession with Dirk's old flame, I can only
    suggest you take it up with a mental health professional.

    In any case, this newsgroup is not a gay meeting forum
    and I am not *Dennis* so take your crap elsewhere.

    Sue !!!
     
    Sue..., Jan 24, 2009
    #30
  11. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    The GPS receivers don't have to have atomic clocks to work, given
    a sufficient number of satellites, geometry and so on Koobee. But
    the system as a whole must have exquisite timing, orbital accuracy
    and a good figure of the earth.

    Eric is right on.

    Here are some resources for you, Koobee:
    http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #31
  12. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    Dennis (AKA Sue) -- You keep forgetting gravitational time dilation!
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #32
  13. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #33
  14. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    There is every point to continue, Koobee, because you should
    really take some time to understand the principles and
    implementation of global navigation satellite systems.


    Interface Control Document ICD-GPS-200D
    http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

    GPS is a Satellite Navigation System
    http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html

    Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
    http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/navigate.gif

    Ephemeris Data Set Used in Pseudo-Range Navigation Solution Example
    http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
     
    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #34
  15. Sam Wormley

    Sam Wormley Guest

    Sam Wormley, Jan 24, 2009
    #35
  16. Sam Wormley

    Y.Porat Guest

    common man
    do you have difficulty in reading englidh???

    my claim is that GR repeat curvature of space time
    has nothing to do with the GPS system
    space is nothing and therefore cannot have
    any properties except hosting mass
    if there is no mass in there it does not curve and does not shmerve
    the curved movement(of masses!!) is due to some
    force agemnts that stem from mass !!!
    em waves has mass as well !!!
    othoha
    he fact that whilwe a mass reaches closer to the c velocity
    it becomes more dificult for it to add velocity
    so relative to a stationary detector there is a change
    measurments ie they do not remain constant
    9the relative motion in slow elative movement
    is different from that while there is a hihgr movement
    of the deteced mass
    that is why i agree with SR !!
    **but that has nothing to do with GR**
    that claimes that space is a sort of force maker
    that can curve a movement pass of a mass
    waht cuses the curved movement of mass
    is
    **mass agents that are emmited fromone mass to the other**
    as in ***all forces*** that we know
    electric magnetic nuclear etc etc

    got it once and for all ??
    and please dont forget who told you that
    for the first time
    and write it down in your **new books**
    not in your old ones !!
    and once upon a time(may be after 50 years ..) while you quote it
    dont forget who was the original .thinker ...

    ATB
    Y.Porat
    -----------------------------
     
    Y.Porat, Jan 24, 2009
    #36
  17. Sam Wormley

    Y.Porat Guest

    ------------------------
    common
    the 'space segments that are quoted there
    *has nothing to do with 'curvature of space time'

    it has a lot to do withthe fact that satellites are
    orbiting earth
    and it has nothing to do with the 'force of space
    curvature'
    it is the Gravitons that do it!!
    it is mass messengers from earth !!
    2
    it has nothingto do with clocks changing ther rate
    *in their rest frame*
    it is not in their rest frame
    it is the relative movent betwen them
    and earth that detects their movement!
    or relative movement between themselves
    plus earth
    you always have the problem of 'downloading' the data to earth by EM
    waves
    in short

    SR indeed has a lot to do with it
    GR has nothing to do with it !!!
    and the theory as well has nothing to do with
    GR
    it is only the SR which is againf just in practice
    *atrial and error **engineering**system
    so
    stop stealing credit from engineering sytems
    to your GR theory !!
    and the sooner realizing it- the better for all of us --
    on the long run .

    ATB
    Y.Porat
    -------------------
     
    Y.Porat, Jan 25, 2009
    #37
  18. Sam Wormley

    Eric Gisse Guest

    NURRRRR
     
    Eric Gisse, Jan 26, 2009
    #38
  19. I note with interest that Koobee Wublee doesn't know the difference
    between a specification and an application note.

    The manufacturers of the GPS-satellites better take
    the specification "as the Bible"! :)

    http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

    I quote section 3.3.1.1 from this SPECIFICATION:
    <<
    3.3.1.1 Frequency Plan.
    The L-band signals shall be contained within two 20.46-MHz bands
    centred about L1 and L2. The carrier frequencies for the L1 and L2
    signals shall be coherently derived from a common frequency source
    within the SV. The nominal frequency of this source -- as it appears
    to an observer on the ground -- is 10.23 MHz. The SV carrier frequency
    and clock rates -- as they would appear to an observer located in
    the SV -- are offset to compensate for relativistic effects. The clock
    rates are offset by delta_f/f = -4.4647E-10, equivalent to a change in
    the P-code shipping rate of 10.23 MHz offset by a delta_f = -4.5674E-3 Hz.
    This is equal to 10.22999999543 MHz. The nominal carrier frequencies (fo)
    shall be 1575.42 MHz, and 1227.6 MHz for L1 and L2, respectively.
    There is nothing to discuss. It is an indisputable fact that
    the -4.4647E-10 correction predicted by GR is built into
    each and every GPS-satellite, which proves that the GPS works
    with the corrections introduced by GR.
    This is incredible stupid!
    There are 24 satellites in 6 planes. They are moving fast relative
    to each other. And you claim that it is simpler to synchronize
    the satellites between themselves than to do it form the ground!
    It would be virtually impossible!
    And it isn't done.
    Each SV clock is synchronized to the ground clocks from the ground.
    It isn't very smart to lie like this when what I actually said can
    be found on Google:

    http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/msg/864da1c5af07fc14
    http://tinyurl.com/bdzm4k
    <<
    It is completely beside the point to repeat over and over
    that the small offset in the frequencies sent from
    the satellite have no consequences whatsover,
    because nobody ever said they had.

    Listen autistic idiot:
    The reason, and only reason, why the frequency standard is corrected
    for relativistic effects is to make the SV clock run synchronously with
    the ground clocks.

    That the carrier and shipping frequencies also are adjusted is
    just a side effect because all frequencies are derived from
    the same frequency standard.

    Read this:

    | -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    | The important point is that if the SV clock rates were not corrected,
    | they would drift out of sync from GPS time after few minutes.
    | The clocks have to be in sync within 100 ns for the GPS to work.
    | -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    All this stupid fuss about the frequencies emitted from
    the satellite is copletely beside the point!

    The carrier frequencies, like all other frequencies,
    are at the receiver Doppler shifted between +/- 3E-7.
    The satellites are moving!
    This is equivalent to a frequency shift of the carriers
    in the order of kHz. Since the banwidth of the channels
    is ca. 20 MHz, this is of no consequence for the receiver.

    The Doppler shift may be almost a thousand times more than
    the minute GR-correction, so of bloody course the -4.4647E-10
    offset is of no concequence whatsoever for the receiver!
    AND NOBODY EVER SAID OTHERWISE!
    A strange statement.
    The engineers building the GPS-satellites are obviously smart
    enough to build them according to the specification.
    So what exactly are you referring to?
     
    Paul B. Andersen, Jan 26, 2009
    #39
  20. Sam Wormley

    Strich.9 Guest

    UNPROVEN (and illogical)
     
    Strich.9, Jan 26, 2009
    #40
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