Bush to consider shutting down GPS in extreme emergency

[Juergen Nieveler]

And the cost?

Isn't the problem of the owners of GPS. The users of GPS don't pay for
it, and they get what they pay for.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Who gives money to the Pentagon?

Not me, for example. Nor anybody not living or paying taxes in the USA.

You might have a case if the company that might get crippled is in the
USA, but I doubt the Pentagon will think twice about some european
company, or some farmers in Africa.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

GPS
Internet

Our company has a contract that says in case of downtime our
connectivity will be restored within 8 hours.

Electricity

Don't know the specifics of the contract for electricity, but it's well
below 4 hours IIRC. Plus, in case of work on our power substation, we
get sufficient advance notice to rent a large diesel generator to keep
the IT department up and running.

Medical Care

Hospitals tend to have enough electricity generating capacity to go for
several days without external power, and they also have enough water
stored for some time. Even after huge natural disasters, hospitals are
supposed to keep working.

Food production and dissemination

In times of crisis, people get told to keep a small stockpile of food
at home.

Telephone service

Just like Internet access, companies tend to have tight contracts about
how to handle outages

Fuel

Stockpiles again

Water

For the industrial users, there are either contracts handling it, or
they even have their own water wells. BTST.

Air

Just HOW can you run out of air? ;-)

We try to make each as robust as we can.

Indeed. And in case something fails that you won't get a guaranteed
repair time for, you'll have to have an alternative for it.

Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Or you can just replace the people who think that it's okay to turn off
GPS.

People tried not too long ago, remember? GWB is still in the White
House ;-)


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Steven Shelikoff]

Garmin 2610 = $700, paper map = $.50

Now compare what a mapping GPS with Bluechart costs compared to a
complete set of nautical charts for the same area. Ouch!

Steve

 

[Mxsmanic]

Tough luck - the Pentagon owns the system and pays for it, they decide
what happens with it.

The Pentagon is not a sovereign state; it works for the civilian
population. And it does whatever it is told to do.

But the Pentagon can shut down GPS any time they like ...

You talk about the Pentagon as if it were some sort of foreign invader.
The Pentagon is nothing more than a group of civil servants, sworn to do
as they are told.

... you can't stop them from doing it, nor can anybody else except the
President of the USA - he's the only person in the chain of command
that ranks higher than the Secretary of Defense, who`s the owner of GPS.

Actually, Congress can stop it also, by not signing the checks.

The United States owns GPS, not the Secretary of Defense.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Yes, but timekeeping wasn't the reason why GPS was built. If it had
just been a question of keeping clocks synchronized, there would have
been easier ways to do that.

Such as?

 

[Mxsmanic]

But that's not a problem for the Pentagon, is it?

It's a problem for the Pentagon just as it is for everyone else.

But that's not a problem for the Pentagon, is it?

The Pentagon pays bills, follows the laws of physics, and uses the
toilet just like everyone else. You may be confusing it with Mount
Olympus or the Land of Oz.

 

[Mxsmanic]

People tried not too long ago, remember?

Some did, but they were not a clear majority.

 

[Mxsmanic]

So yes, each satelite itself can be seen from half the planet - but the
area in which they form an effective navigation system still isn't
nearly a whole hemisphere, depending on the orbits of the satelites.

There are always more than enough of them visible to get a fix,
everywhere on the planet.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Yes, but surveying isn't only done to produce maps - indeed most of the
surveying is done to build stuff like roads, bridges and buildings.
So?

Not necessarily. A good surveyor can work without GPS just as easily ...

Not nearly as easily, but he can get the job done, in time, and perhaps
with a few errors.

Think the channel tunnel builders used GPS to build their
tunnels?

Yes, that's exactly how they did it.

Which is why the US Army would want civilian GPS shut down in time of
war: They want to be the only ones with the advantages of GPS.

So they don't care what happens to civilians? With friends like that,
who needs enemies?

I doubt the Pentagon would shed a tear over enemy units getting
lost ...

What about civilians--their masters?

... and they're the owners of GPS, so their rules apply.

No, the state owns GPS. The Pentagon operates it, in part.

Question is: Will the Pentagon listen? Doubtfull, at best.

The Pentagon does what it is told. If Congress told it to turn over the
GPS to Wal-Mart tomorrow, it would do so.

So you won't pay your GPS bill next month? The Pentagon will be
trembling in fear.

You seem to attribute godlike characteristics to the Pentagon. It's
just a building filled with government employees.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Can you proof that not a single life would be safed by NOT shutting GPS
down, just to keep it running for some people who didn't pay a dime for
that service?

Can you prove that no lives would be lost by shutting it down? The
burden of proof is upon the party wanted to shut down critical national
infrastructure.

 

[Mxsmanic]

No, because at that time you won't have a DGPS station up - that's what
you are doing at that point, remember?

You don't need one. You take a series of GPS fixes over a long period.
The average is your true position.

And the problem is?

The time and cost.

 

[Mxsmanic]

But if you have plenty of time anyway, you can just as well do it
without GPS.

You make the observations using GPS.

 

[Mxsmanic]

You might have a case if the company that might get crippled is in the
USA, but I doubt the Pentagon will think twice about some european
company, or some farmers in Africa.

It's not their job to worry about Europeans or Africans.

 

[Mxsmanic]

So? Captains have learned to do that centuries ago.

No, they didn't. Very often they got lost and died at sea if they
ventured too far from land.

The biggest hazard to shipping isn't "Getting lost", it's
"Hitting stuff that isn't on the map".

Only because accurate navigation is possible today. In the
not-so-distant past, getting lost was the number one problem.

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

Garmin 2610 = $700, paper map = $.50

Don't forget the batteries ;-)

Juergen Nieveler

 

[Juergen Nieveler]

But by luck, rather than by design.

So? If Washington hadn't been lucky, you'd still be a british colony.


Juergen Nieveler

 

[Mxsmanic]

If Washington hadn't been lucky, you'd still be a british colony.

But that luck is history. It's the future that counts.

 

[Sam Wormley]

But for GPS to work, you need at least 3 satelites. And you can only
get a working solution in the area where the 3 circles cast by each
satelite overlap.

One satellite will provide (nonprecise) timing data

Two satellites with altitude and timing augmentation will
provide a 2-D position and velocity

See: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/gpsuser/gpsuser.pdf