Bush to consider shutting down GPS in extreme emergency

I believe the USG signed a MOU with ICAO secral years ago on this
very topic; ICAO being unwilling to sanction GPS navigation as long
as the Pentegon could disable it on any whim.

 

The one that was proposed half a century ago and took fifty years to put
into operation, yes.

 

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would change its
outcome, if at all?

 

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would change its
outcome, if at all?

 

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

Can you show me where in the document the GPS system is to be shut down on
a whim or for extended periods? No, it is not stated in that manner
anywhere. In point of fact, the contrary is stated. The document clearly
states that GPS technology is to be improved upon and only selectively shut
down if it were to be used against us and even then in only the most
critical of scenarios. I see absolutely nothing wrong. I am in full support
of the initiative.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

Isn't Trimble the head of the lobbyist group for the GPS industry? I would
think that Trimble would be the most concerned since a shut down affects
the equipment he sells. If anyone, he has commercial interests. Yet he
fully supports the measure.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

Chicken Little and "The Sky is Falling" has been replaced by "Bush is going
to shut down the GPS system forever".

But let's keep making those Straw Dogs.

 

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

Can you show me where in the document the GPS system is to be shut down on
a whim or for extended periods? No, it is not stated in that manner
anywhere. In point of fact, the contrary is stated. The document clearly
states that GPS technology is to be improved upon and only selectively shut
down if it were to be used against us and even then in only the most
critical of scenarios. I see absolutely nothing wrong. I am in full support
of the initiative.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

Isn't Trimble the head of the lobbyist group for the GPS industry? I would
think that Trimble would be the most concerned since a shut down affects
the equipment he sells. If anyone, he has commercial interests. Yet he
fully supports the measure.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

Chicken Little and "The Sky is Falling" has been replaced by "Bush is going
to shut down the GPS system forever".

But let's keep making those Straw Dogs.

 

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

Can you show me where in the document the GPS system is to be shut down on
a whim or for extended periods? No, it is not stated in that manner
anywhere. In point of fact, the contrary is stated. The document clearly
states that GPS technology is to be improved upon and only selectively shut
down if it were to be used against us and even then in only the most
critical of scenarios. I see absolutely nothing wrong. I am in full support
of the initiative.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

Isn't Trimble the head of the lobbyist group for the GPS industry? I would
think that Trimble would be the most concerned since a shut down affects
the equipment he sells. If anyone, he has commercial interests. Yet he
fully supports the measure.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

Chicken Little and "The Sky is Falling" has been replaced by "Bush is going
to shut down the GPS system forever".

But let's keep making those Straw Dogs.

 

(JetCaptain) wrote in

The government figures the tradeoff daily. The FAA has decided that 10
and 20 are the cutoffs. *All* government regulations are dependent on
how many lives, and how much economic cost, is involved.

But not for your government. If some lives will be lost but businesses
will be out money, then the economic benefit is chosen. It's done every
day, with every law and regulation.

What terrorist needs to use a GPS to deliver a weapon? Precision isn't
at all necessary for a terrorist attack. Do you really think a GPS was
used to hit the WTC towers? If you have a dirty bomb, or a biological or
chemical weapon, you don't need a GPS to deliver it. If you're attacking
a hardened military target, then you need precision. To scare New York
City, anywhere in the 5 boroughs is close enough. Shutting off the GPS
system will have no effect at all on the terrorists, but enormous effect
on the economy, thus multiplying the effect by orders of magnitude. I
can't think of many better ways to help a terrorist.

 

How many times do you plan to post this?

Exactly what type of jet are you captain of? A Skidoo?

 

What's the DOD's track record to date?

 

You have made my point. The documents clearly sate that GPS will not be
shut down except in the case of an extreme emergency where it is being used
against us. That scenario seems very unlikely and it has not been proven
that the threat even exists. The DOD directive is to investigate the
possibility and have a contingency plan. Nothing more to it than that.
There is only rife speculation in these threads.

This whole thread is a blown way out of proportion. It has been taken to
the extremes. Sheesh, to read the posts it would make one believe Bush is
just standing there with his hand over the "GPS Disable" button and will
push it if if his dog barks.

Time for a reality check people. The sky is not falling and the civilian
GPS system will not be shut down on a whim.

 

You'd disrupt an entire nation to save one life? That's a very romantic
viewpoint but it's not a very rational or realistic one.

And neither does the government.

What makes you think that they are any better at this than you are?

Not really. I made similar arguments long before Bush came to office.

It's more of a trade-off between human lives lost to terrorist activity
and human lives lost due to a disabling of a critical part of the
national infrastructure. I'm convinced that the latter would outweigh
the former, since terrorist activities tend to cause relatively limited
loss of life.

No. I know too much about what the government is doing to feel good
about it.

Will somebody please give me the name of one terrorist who depends on
GPS for his nefarious plans and has no provision for a backup plan
should GPS fail?

 

Then your point is very unpersuasive. You're saying that you have no
facts to go on, and you're making your decision based purely on emotion.

Nothing about this plan is thinking outside of the box. Indeed, it is
dangerously conventional.

No. There are many technologies that can be used by terrorists against
us, but the utility of the technologies themselves to us outweighs this
risk, so they remain. GPS is in this category.

But you base these opinions on emotion, not reason, by your own
admission. You rely on faith, not fact.

I have yet to hear of a terrorist who relies on GPS and does not have a
backup plan in place.

 

If it's that improbable, there's no need to put plans for it in writing.

 

What's the DOD's track record to date?

 

But Galileo will have the same problem.

 

Juergen, I don't think you get out much in the network world. Something like
this fault scenario happened back in 1999. In the US, there was a lot of
concern about what might happen if the GPS satellites failed the Year 2000 test
and the Week 1024 test. So, Space Command put up a test. They transmitted an
instruction to one satellite to move its date up. The satellite accepted the
command and started transmitting its new date in the downlink message. All that
worked fine. Unfortunately, around the US there were hundreds or thousands of
BITS clocks that used GPS+atomic clocks... that were all manufactured by the
same company. The GPS receiver portions saw one satellite with one date, and
several satellites with a different date, and the RAIM flag went up, the GPS
receivers went into alarm, Sync Status Messages started flying around, and
hundreds or thousands of central office technicians were scrambled out of a
sound sleep to go reset the receivers. It was not a nationally crippling event,
but there was hell to pay.

---Bob Gross---

 

A quick google search reveals that they orbit at about 19,000
kilometers in a 12 hour orbit. That places them 3 radii from the
center of the planet or 2 radii above it's surface. A little bit of
quick geometry would clearly support the claim above, that they are
"visible" over most of the hemisphere they are above. That varies of
course since they are by no means in equatorial orbits

Ed

 

So it all boils down to a matter of trust.

And that's why Galileo is being built.

Not because the EU particularly WANTS to spend a few billion
dollars duplicating a US system.

But because the EU no longer trusts the USA.

The recent Bush administration announcement vindicates their
decision.

 

The EU trusted the EU far more than the DoD; and that was
BEFORE our current Administration took over...