Bush to consider shutting down GPS in extreme emergency

[David Lesher]

Which is exactly what I keep telling him: A written statement telling
you that you can rely on the system being up and running 24/7 without
any politician having access to an off-switch.

With GPS, there is no such statement, and thus no chance to stop a
politician from switching it off. For all we know, civilian access to
GPS could be stopped today, without any of us being able to protest
against it - it's a Pentagon-owned system, so the Pentagon decides what
to do with it, PERIOD.

I believe the USG signed a MOU with ICAO secral years ago on this
very topic; ICAO being unwilling to sanction GPS navigation as long
as the Pentegon could disable it on any whim.

 

[Mxsmanic]

The one being worth more than the dollar for months now?

The one that was proposed half a century ago and took fifty years to put
into operation, yes.

 

[Sam Wormley]

Sam

Your mantra seems at what cost for so many commercial activities. At what
cost of human life due to a possible terrrorist attack does it offset your
growing concerns over commercial impact. 10 dead, a 100, a 1,000, ????
Where is the trade off point in your mind?

In mine, the saving of the life of a single individual is enough for me.

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would change its
outcome, if at all?

 

[Sam Wormley]

Sam

Your mantra seems at what cost for so many commercial activities. At what
cost of human life due to a possible terrrorist attack does it offset your
growing concerns over commercial impact. 10 dead, a 100, a 1,000, ????
Where is the trade off point in your mind?

In mine, the saving of the life of a single individual is enough for me.

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would change its
outcome, if at all?

 

[JetCaptain]

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would
change its
outcome, if at all?

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

Can you show me where in the document the GPS system is to be shut down on
a whim or for extended periods? No, it is not stated in that manner
anywhere. In point of fact, the contrary is stated. The document clearly
states that GPS technology is to be improved upon and only selectively shut
down if it were to be used against us and even then in only the most
critical of scenarios. I see absolutely nothing wrong. I am in full support
of the initiative.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

Isn't Trimble the head of the lobbyist group for the GPS industry? I would
think that Trimble would be the most concerned since a shut down affects
the equipment he sells. If anyone, he has commercial interests. Yet he
fully supports the measure.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

Chicken Little and "The Sky is Falling" has been replaced by "Bush is going
to shut down the GPS system forever".

But let's keep making those Straw Dogs.

 

[JetCaptain]

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would
change its
outcome, if at all?

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

Can you show me where in the document the GPS system is to be shut down on
a whim or for extended periods? No, it is not stated in that manner
anywhere. In point of fact, the contrary is stated. The document clearly
states that GPS technology is to be improved upon and only selectively shut
down if it were to be used against us and even then in only the most
critical of scenarios. I see absolutely nothing wrong. I am in full support
of the initiative.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

Isn't Trimble the head of the lobbyist group for the GPS industry? I would
think that Trimble would be the most concerned since a shut down affects
the equipment he sells. If anyone, he has commercial interests. Yet he
fully supports the measure.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

Chicken Little and "The Sky is Falling" has been replaced by "Bush is going
to shut down the GPS system forever".

But let's keep making those Straw Dogs.

 

[JetCaptain]

Terrorism happen all over the world and many live are lost everyday. Can
you demonstrate how terrorist might make use of GPS signal during an attack
and how removal of those signal after the attack has started, would
change its
outcome, if at all?

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

Can you show me where in the document the GPS system is to be shut down on
a whim or for extended periods? No, it is not stated in that manner
anywhere. In point of fact, the contrary is stated. The document clearly
states that GPS technology is to be improved upon and only selectively shut
down if it were to be used against us and even then in only the most
critical of scenarios. I see absolutely nothing wrong. I am in full support
of the initiative.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

Isn't Trimble the head of the lobbyist group for the GPS industry? I would
think that Trimble would be the most concerned since a shut down affects
the equipment he sells. If anyone, he has commercial interests. Yet he
fully supports the measure.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

Chicken Little and "The Sky is Falling" has been replaced by "Bush is going
to shut down the GPS system forever".

But let's keep making those Straw Dogs.

 

[Stan Gosnell]

[email protected] (JetCaptain) wrote in

Your mantra seems at what cost for so many commercial activities. At
what cost of human life due to a possible terrrorist attack does it
offset your growing concerns over commercial impact. 10 dead, a 100, a
1,000, ???? Where is the trade off point in your mind?

The government figures the tradeoff daily. The FAA has decided that 10
and 20 are the cutoffs. *All* government regulations are dependent on
how many lives, and how much economic cost, is involved.

In mine, the saving of the life of a single individual is enough for
me.

But not for your government. If some lives will be lost but businesses
will be out money, then the economic benefit is chosen. It's done every
day, with every law and regulation.

Now sit back and ask yourself, what is the likelihood of GPS being
disabled? Where is your trade off point in human life lost to
terrorist attack versus commercial interests? Could civilian GPS even
be used by the terrorists requiring it to be selectively shutdown?
Don't you really feel better knowing that your government is actually
planning ahead for your protection?

What terrorist needs to use a GPS to deliver a weapon? Precision isn't
at all necessary for a terrorist attack. Do you really think a GPS was
used to hit the WTC towers? If you have a dirty bomb, or a biological or
chemical weapon, you don't need a GPS to deliver it. If you're attacking
a hardened military target, then you need precision. To scare New York
City, anywhere in the 5 boroughs is close enough. Shutting off the GPS
system will have no effect at all on the terrorists, but enormous effect
on the economy, thus multiplying the effect by orders of magnitude. I
can't think of many better ways to help a terrorist.

 

[Stan Gosnell]

How many times do you plan to post this?

Exactly what type of jet are you captain of? A Skidoo?

 

[Sam Wormley]

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

What's the DOD's track record to date?

 

[JetCaptain]

[email protected] (JetCaptain) wrote in


The government figures the tradeoff daily. The FAA has decided that 10
and 20 are the cutoffs. *All* government regulations are dependent on
how many lives, and how much economic cost, is involved.


But not for your government. If some lives will be lost but businesses
will be out money, then the economic benefit is chosen. It's done every
day, with every law and regulation.


What terrorist needs to use a GPS to deliver a weapon? Precision isn't
at all necessary for a terrorist attack. Do you really think a GPS was
used to hit the WTC towers? If you have a dirty bomb, or a biological or
chemical weapon, you don't need a GPS to deliver it. If you're attacking
a hardened military target, then you need precision. To scare New York
City, anywhere in the 5 boroughs is close enough. Shutting off the GPS
system will have no effect at all on the terrorists, but enormous effect
on the economy, thus multiplying the effect by orders of magnitude. I
can't think of many better ways to help a terrorist.

You have made my point. The documents clearly sate that GPS will not be
shut down except in the case of an extreme emergency where it is being used
against us. That scenario seems very unlikely and it has not been proven
that the threat even exists. The DOD directive is to investigate the
possibility and have a contingency plan. Nothing more to it than that.
There is only rife speculation in these threads.

This whole thread is a blown way out of proportion. It has been taken to
the extremes. Sheesh, to read the posts it would make one believe Bush is
just standing there with his hand over the "GPS Disable" button and will
push it if if his dog barks.

Time for a reality check people. The sky is not falling and the civilian
GPS system will not be shut down on a whim.

 

[Mxsmanic]

In mine, the saving of the life of a single individual is enough for me.

You'd disrupt an entire nation to save one life? That's a very romantic
viewpoint but it's not a very rational or realistic one.

Neither you nor anybody in this group knows for certain what threats we
face now or may face in the future.

And neither does the government.

I have a full faith in our government that they will endeavor to do
the best they can to protect us. I am comforted in knowing that they
are looking at all scenarios on my behalf.

What makes you think that they are any better at this than you are?

That political motivation is behind them is unquestionable
since the thread topic is "Bush to consider shutting down GPS in extreme
emergency".

Not really. I made similar arguments long before Bush came to office.

Now sit back and ask yourself, what is the likelihood of GPS being
disabled? Where is your trade off point in human life lost to terrorist
attack versus commercial interests?

It's more of a trade-off between human lives lost to terrorist activity
and human lives lost due to a disabling of a critical part of the
national infrastructure. I'm convinced that the latter would outweigh
the former, since terrorist activities tend to cause relatively limited
loss of life.

Don't you really feel
better knowing that your government is actually planning ahead for your
protection?

No. I know too much about what the government is doing to feel good
about it.

Now will somebody please give me the name of a company that depends on GPS
timing signals down to the nanosecond for their business to operate and
does not have a contingency plan?

Will somebody please give me the name of one terrorist who depends on
GPS for his nefarious plans and has no provision for a backup plan
should GPS fail?

 

[Mxsmanic]

No. And that is my whole point.

Then your point is very unpersuasive. You're saying that you have no
facts to go on, and you're making your decision based purely on emotion.

I am happy to know that the DOD is thinking outside of the box.

Nothing about this plan is thinking outside of the box. Indeed, it is
dangerously conventional.

If the DOD thought terrorists were able to use our own GPS against us,
don't you think that civilian use would be curtailed already?

No. There are many technologies that can be used by terrorists against
us, but the utility of the technologies themselves to us outweighs this
risk, so they remain. GPS is in this category.

I sincerely doubt that civilian GPS puts us in a "real and present danger"
and have no doubts that it will continue uninterrupted.

But you base these opinions on emotion, not reason, by your own
admission. You rely on faith, not fact.

I yet to hear of a company name that relies upon GPS timing signals and
does not have a backup plan in place. I am beginning to believe it is the
figment of an over active imagination, much like many other of the reponses
in these threads.

I have yet to hear of a terrorist who relies on GPS and does not have a
backup plan in place.

 

[Mxsmanic]

Time for a reality check people. The sky is not falling and the civilian
GPS system will not be shut down on a whim.

If it's that improbable, there's no need to put plans for it in writing.

 

[Sam Wormley]

No. And that is my whole point. The documents provided only acknowledge
that the DOD should investigate if the possibility exists and to have a
contingency plan put into place should the danger exist. I am happy to know
that the DOD is thinking outside of the box. Proper planning cannot be over
emphasized. I for one am happy to know our DOD is looking out for us.

What's the DOD's track record to date?

 

[Mxsmanic]

I believe the USG signed a MOU with ICAO secral years ago on this
very topic; ICAO being unwilling to sanction GPS navigation as long
as the Pentegon could disable it on any whim.

But Galileo will have the same problem.

 

[Robertwgross]

And what exactly would stop them from working if only atomic clocks are
available? At least for a limited time span they would keep in sync
using atomic clocks, and after that they'd still work at reduced
bandwidth.
I agree that GPS is a convenient tool to keep the clocks synched, but
that can be done by other means, too. And you can bet that major
network providers DO have contingency plans in case GPS isn't available.

Juergen, I don't think you get out much in the network world. Something like
this fault scenario happened back in 1999. In the US, there was a lot of
concern about what might happen if the GPS satellites failed the Year 2000 test
and the Week 1024 test. So, Space Command put up a test. They transmitted an
instruction to one satellite to move its date up. The satellite accepted the
command and started transmitting its new date in the downlink message. All that
worked fine. Unfortunately, around the US there were hundreds or thousands of
BITS clocks that used GPS+atomic clocks... that were all manufactured by the
same company. The GPS receiver portions saw one satellite with one date, and
several satellites with a different date, and the RAIM flag went up, the GPS
receivers went into alarm, Sync Status Messages started flying around, and
hundreds or thousands of central office technicians were scrambled out of a
sound sleep to go reset the receivers. It was not a nationally crippling event,
but there was hell to pay.

---Bob Gross---

 

[Ed Seedhouse]

No. Each satellite broadcasts to nearly half the planet at any given
instant, not to some narrow swath on the ground.

A quick google search reveals that they orbit at about 19,000
kilometers in a 12 hour orbit. That places them 3 radii from the
center of the planet or 2 radii above it's surface. A little bit of
quick geometry would clearly support the claim above, that they are
"visible" over most of the hemisphere they are above. That varies of
course since they are by no means in equatorial orbits

Ed

 

[Agamemnon]

But Galileo will have the same problem.

So it all boils down to a matter of trust.

And that's why Galileo is being built.

Not because the EU particularly WANTS to spend a few billion
dollars duplicating a US system.

But because the EU no longer trusts the USA.

The recent Bush administration announcement vindicates their
decision.

 

[David Lesher]

But Galileo will have the same problem.

The EU trusted the EU far more than the DoD; and that was
BEFORE our current Administration took over...