GPS World: USNO's Fountain: Time at 100 Trillionths of a Second

[snip]

....and for giggle's sake, go to http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/
and notice that Sam Wormley's page on the GPS is cited.

Whoops?

 

Shrugging Koobee does not understand how GPS works--he has only read
how GPS receivers do calculations... and even gets that wrong.

Poster Horton asks the relativity nay-sayers a fair question, namely
"are there any published papers that show a calculation of what the
clock speed difference should be, using effects other than relativity"?

Nay-sayers, please cite alternatives to relativity!

-Sam Wormley
http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_books.html

 

If you say so, Potter! Whatever.

 

I remind Koobee that there has never been a prediction of special
or general reltivity that has been contradicted by an observation.
Applications of relativity in many area have contributed to scientific
leadership and contributed to the economy of many countries.

Foe example, GTR has directly contributed to a $30B+ GPS industry,
benefiting people all over the world. Aviation, shipping, asset
management, survey, mining, agriculture, time dissemination,
communications networks... and on and on!

Use your VA benefits and get yourself a science education, Koobee.

 

-----------------------
i agree with anything Potter wrote above
especially withthe claim
that curved space time is a huge waist of time
and human resources !!!
and that thee is a huge amount of cheating
monkey behavior about it !!
OTHOA
i totally do not agree with Potter
about his irrational racist opposition
and attempt to deprive Einstein from his being
THE scientist of the 20 centuries
and one of the greatest of all times
just becuse he has a pathological hatred for Jews
in general

Einsteins SR
his innovations about the photoelectric phenomenon
his E=mc^2
are momentous !!!
and indeed brought those billions of gain
to humanity beside the scientific advance
yet he was a hunan being that used as well
the trial and error system (as should be in a deadlock situation)
so his GR was a wrong guess
but not diminishing a bit from his
momentous historic achievements

no serious and decent scientist can deny it
ATB
Y.Porat
--------------------------

 

Clocks have a little screw adjustment on them so
you can make them tick faster or slower.

If we found the original screwdrivers used on the
first and second GPS SVs and put them in a display
case at the U.S. Air and Space Museum,
(perhaps next to the Enola Gay bomb-sight display)...
Would the system work just as well if those two
screwdrivers were in a display case instead of
plastered on every billboard that the agencies
on Madison Avenue can get their hands on to
promote misinterpretations of one of the most
cumbersome theories ever concocted.

Will the system still work if the screwdrivers are
in a museum display case?

Sue...

 

Dennis Sue -- One can use this diagram to choose which way to
turn the screw and by how much. Thanks to GTR.

http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png

 

And Dennis Sue, I forgot to point out that with highly elliptical
orbits... well who wants to be screwing all the time!

 

<<    Dennis Sue >>

Is is YOU spoofing or really posting from
VA and Boeing IP address and misquoting
distinguished scientists?

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.relativity/browse_frm/thread/efc7c08ca94417d1#


If so you better get back on your meds.
That crap can get you some visitors you'd
rather not have or get you somewhere they
MAKE you take your meds.


You can contact Dennis through his old
employer but take your meds first.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q="den...aq=f&oq="dennis+mccarthy"+usno&fp=d0QRpKDFuLE


Sue...

 

Hey--Wake up-a-little-Suzy! What'a'ya gonna tell your mom-ma?
What'a'ya gonna tell your pa? What-a-ya-gonna tell your friend
when they say relativity is right-on?

The sun is up in the Fayetteville area, even if it's a bit overcast.

Dennis Sue -- One can use this diagram to choose which way to
turn the screw and by how much. Thanks to GTR.

http://relativity.livingreviews.org/Articles/lrr-2003-1/frctfrq.png

 

No case need be made. LIGO is silent, and GPB results* are negative.

*http://einstein.stanford.edu/highlights/status1.html

 

You need to address what I wrote first before then I will response to
your whining crap if I indeed choose to. Or else, we have no
discussions. <shrug>

There are no definitive requirements to say the satellite clock
frequency must be with certain percentage of the ground clock
frequency. This is explained by the manufacturers of GPS receivers.

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/theory.htm

For example, the satellite clock can all tick at 1.000GHz +/- 0.5Hz
while the ground clock can tick at 577.9874MHz +/- 10.67MHz.

When your receiver receives almanac information from four satellites
with each giving its time, altitude, longitude, and latitude, you can
form a set of four equations with four unknowns. The unknowns are
your satellite time (nothing to do with ground time), your altitude,
your longitude, and your latitude.

Professor Andersen knew this, but trying to promote the nonsense of SR
and GR, he proposed a fairy-like mysterious function to the GPS where
this mystic function requires the synchronization of the satellite and
ground clocks. Professor Roberts recently understood this. In doing
so, you also proposed a top-secret military function built into the
GPS that also requires the synchronization of the satellite and the
ground clocks. It becomes a faith issue. However, I call the bluffs
of these professors. I do not buy the mysticism they try to promote
for SR and GR. <shrug>

 

Show me actual GPS specifications. Do you know what specifications
look like, college drop-out?

 

"whining crap" == http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA058591

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/default.htm

"GPS SPS Signal Specification, 2nd Edition (June 2, 1995)"

Right there on page 18:

"The nominal frequency of this source -- as it appears to an observer
on the ground -- is
1.023 MHz. To compensate for relativistic effects, the output
frequency of the satellite's frequency
standard -- as it would appear to an observer located at the satellite
-- is 10.23 MHz offset by a
Df/f = -4.4647 x 10-18 or a Df = -4.567 x 10-3 Hz."

 

I don't /need/ to do anything. You have already proven content to
repeat the same lies and stupidities for 4 years running.

[snip endlessly repeated rest]

 

In general, the high the frequency used to measure time has better
resolution. It is still very important to keep the accuracy of
frequency at desired level though.

The information you want is the 50-bits/sec almanac (navigation)
information that gives you each satellite’s time, altitude, longitude,
and latitude. Acquiring 4 satellites, you can easily write a set of 4
equations with 4 unknowns where the unknowns are your time (measured
in satellite time), your altitude, your longitude, and your latitude.
This is junior-high algebra.

In the satellite, this almanac signal is converted to two broadbands
(XOR operation) by two chipping frequencies: 10.23MHz and 1.023MHz.
The 10MHz broadband is mixed with an RF carrier frequency of
1.227670GHz. In addition, both broadbands are mixed with another RF
carrier frequency of 1.57542GHz. Your receiver usually tunes in to
one of the RF carriers, converts the broadband back into the 50-bits/
sec almanac information.

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/theory.htm

We are talking about 450 parts in a trillion of error if SR and GR are
applied. Thus, there is no need to correct any of the clock
frequencies for SR and GR.

No, GPS does not depend on relativity. PERIOD. The clocks in your
receiver does not have to be anything coherent with any clocks on the
satellites except the chipping rates and RF carrier frequencies.

Thus, the GPS is demystified, and the ghosts of SR and GR are finally
exorcised from GPS.

 

The satellite time is wrong by roughly 50,000 ns/day. Which is why
there is a relativistic correction in the satellite clocks. Which is
why the dumb receivers don't have to do it. Which is why this
information is not on a page detailing the function of a RECEIVER.

It is. Now use the junior-high algebra to show the class what a week's
worth of position error would look like with a timing offset of
~50,000 ns/day. Hint: c = ~ 1 ft/ns.

I find it odd that you have latched onto this page as _THE_
authoritative source on the engineering of the GPS despite the fact
that the page is only relevant to the receiver end of things. The
signal & control aspects of the system are not discussed in any way.

This was explained to you back in 2007.
[snip]

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/default.htm

"GPS SPS Signal Specification, 2nd Edition (June 2, 1995)"

Right there on page 18:

"The nominal frequency of this source -- as it appears to an observer
on the ground -- is 1.023 MHz. To compensate for relativistic effects,
the output frequency of the satellite's frequency standard -- as it
would appear to an observer located at the satellite -- is 10.23 MHz
offset by a Df/f = -4.4647 x 10-18 or a Df = -4.567 x 10-3 Hz."

You'll note I'm citing actual system design, not a hobbyist page on
receiver function.

 

So you set the SV oscillator to that frequency and put the
screwdriver you used in a coin-op peep show. Einstein
worshippers will gladly pay a dollar to gawk at it for
5 minutes. You and the governor could be cashing in
on the GPS craze without either of ya having even a GED.

Sue...

 

No, the carrier frequencies used, were chosen for various reason, such
as bandwidth carrying capacity, attenuation, refraction and scattering
through the ionosphere and troposphere, etc.

It is important, however that the GPS satellite clocks are synchronized
with ground clocks and relativistic corrections are essential.

Now--Given the timing and position information from each satellite and
a measure of the Doppler shift, a GPSr can determine position, time and
velocity from four or more satellites. Peter Dana has put together an
excellent set of web pages that include PVT solution calculations from
the pseudo range data used by the GPSr.

Global Positioning System Overview
http://www.Colorado.EDU/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html
http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/navigate.gif

Highly accurate accurate time falls out of these equations without
having to have an atomic clock in the receiver. It is tied to the
orbiting atomic clocks which are in turn synched to the ground based
atomic clocks--a very nice form of time dissemination worldwide.

 

Koobee needs to study the GPS Navigation message and how it is used
for timing documented in http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/gps/geninfo/IS-GPS-200D.pdf

I've put some of the details online here:
http://edu-observatory.org/gps/ICD-GPS-200C_Fig20-1/

While you are looking at the ICD-GPS-200D, not the relativistic
corrections are part of the specification.